Fascia Flossing 101: Essential insights with Bonnie Crotzer
EP 39

Fascia Flossing 101: Essential insights with Bonnie Crotzer

Show Notes: 

If you thought mycelium networks were fascinating and magical, the body’s fascia matrix is truly next level. Today, I’m joined by Bonnie Crotzer, dancer turned fascial flossing guide, to discuss just how interconnected fascia is to our entire being and how we can return it to its optimal state.  

 

Did you know that fascia is an amazing fabric that links everything in the body? Bonnie explains what fascia is and why it’s so important (and cool) in an easy-to-digest way. Her deep knowledge and passion for the body and how it functions is incredible. Since fascia is a conductor of electricity, the more you move your body, the more electricity you make. The science of fascia demonstrates why movement is key to strong mental health and a radiant spirit.

 

Fascial flossing is a way to reconfigure fascia back to its healthiest state. This is achieved by engaging your muscles while you elongate, allowing the body to work on a deeper level than just stretching. This is important for the body to build strength and stability for everyone, from the hypermobile to the hyper-stiff. 

 

Bonnie encourages self-practice to begin fascia flossing and working with one-on-one practitioners or getting a lymphatic drainage massage as the next steps. Caring for your fascia ensures that you maintain good circulation, which means little or no pain in the body, better oxygenation, full nutrient absorption, and adequate waste rem

 

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favorite podcast platform. 

Topics Covered:

  • The function of fascia 
  • Nerves and vasculature in the fascial matrix
  • How fascia works with the nervous system in acupuncture 
  • What is fascial flossing?
  • Our movement heritage and overstretching 
  • Interconnectedness of fascial health and well-being 
  • How fascia corresponds to meridians 
  • Chronic pain and stress manifestations 
  • Benefits of fascial flossing

Resources Mentioned:

 

Guest Info: 

  • Learn more on Bonnie’s website: thefloss.com
  • Follow The Floss on Instagram: @flossdepartment
  • Follow Bonnie on Instagram: @bonszi 
  • Use exclusive listener code RAINBOFLOSS for 1 month free access to The Floss’ digital platform. This includes an online library filled with fascia flossing techniques and invigorating classes led by Bon! 

 

Follow Me:

 

Show Transcript:

Tonya Papanikolov  00:04

Hi, welcome to the Rainbo podcast. I'm your host, Tonya Papanikolov. Rainbo and I are on a mission to upgrade humanity with fungi and expand the collective conscious. This podcast builds a virtual mycelial network of bold, open minded thinkers and seekers. I chat with experts, thought leaders, healers, scientists, entrepreneurs, spiritual teachers, activists and dreamers. These are stories of healing, human potential and expansion. Tune in root in expand and journey with us.

 

Tonya Papanikolov  00:47

Hello, Bonnie, I'm so excited to be here with you. Thank you so much for taking the time to come and chat about this very fascinating topic that you love and have devoted your life to. And I'm just excited to connect with you. So thank you.

 

Bonnie Crotzer  01:03

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. Have fun.

 

Tonya Papanikolov  01:08

I start every episode asking the guests, our guest what they're grateful for. Today,

 

Bonnie Crotzer  01:16

I had such a beautiful time with dear friends this week, it was a weekday, and I got to play a little hooky, and I just have such amazing friends, like, I'm very grateful for them. Thank you for asking that. 

 

Tonya Papanikolov  01:34

That's so good. Yeah. Very big friend appreciation. And I'll share one too, which is, I think lately for me, and I'm excited to have this conversation with you, but I have, like, more acutely, since being in California, really felt the impacts of movement on my mental health. And I was never really somebody that felt like I needed to move for my mental health. 

 

Tonya Papanikolov  02:01

It was just like, something that I did a lot of, but that connection wasn't as like, I wasn't as acutely aware of that connection. And lately it's just been like, Oh. It's like, you know x equals y or whatever. Like, it feels like really, really necessary. And what an amazing tool and body and ability to move that I feel very grateful for.

 

Bonnie Crotzer  02:25

So do you see that is such a good one? Wow. Love that for you. Thank

 

Tonya Papanikolov  02:30

you. So I know we're gonna dive into fascia and flossing, and I would just maybe love to start with like your personal journey and what led you to this point of where you're at in your life and what you're teaching and how did that evolve for you? Yeah,

 

Bonnie Crotzer  02:49

so I started as a very V person, dancing my little heart out my mom brushnikov, Nutcracker on the TV, and I was three and a half, and she said I wouldn't pull my eyes away from the television, which for me, at that point, I was such a mover, like I could not sit still, that she was like, Okay, well, so eventually I got put a dance, and that began my journey of being amazed and in awe and full of wonder about the human form and how beautifully it moves, and this body and this lifetime was also made to move. That's kind of really how it all began. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  03:30

Eventually, I became a professional ballerina, along with doing modern dance and jazz as well, but a career that required quite a bit of strenuous activity on the body also provided avenues for me to looking into ways to take care of myself. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  03:52

So I was had a very deep yoga practice. I was studying Pilates since I was 15, doing all sorts of things to take care of my body, receiving acupuncture, just studying Chinese medicine on my own, felden Christ Alexander Technique, gyrotonics, the works, trying it all, doing all sorts of things to try to take care of myself and that just in the right moment, I was introduced to my former teacher, Bob Cooley, who is a genius transforming fascia, among many other things, and he was the reason, when I read his book, I was introduced to what fascia was. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  04:34

Even though I went to university, I have a degree in dance, and we studied kinesiology and anatomy and injury prevention thoroughly, but fascia was only mentioned for 30 seconds in all of that time as a we're just talking about plantar fasciitis in the foot, because it's a common death injury, but fascia itself was not being. Spoken about at that time, and I'm kind of dating myself, in a way. But really, fascia is still in its wild, wild west phase. We're on a wild frontier. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  05:11

There's new information about fascia coming through every day with research and amazing anatomist, clinical, anonymous, integral anatomists are, particularly the ones that study the Fauci and then I started getting really curious about that, and like dove into studies around this amazing fabric that links everything in the body. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  05:35

But I was teaching yoga at the time before I started studying with Bob, and I was able to start pulling all these movement modalities into an integrative practice of all the movement things I learned in my past. But certainly that was a pinnacle, a pivot in my life. Was learning about the fashion, how much it changed my body. I didn't know I could feel this good, and I think and that way I feel responsible, or there's grabby toss around my desire to help other people feel well, and yeah, a key factor of that was taking care of my facial health. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  06:17

I used to struggle with a lot of sinus infections, I had a very weak immune system. Had tons of antibiotics when I was a kid, my lymphatic system wasn't great. I would experience swelling from all the strenuous stance that's normal, but like didn't need to be happening my goals, my endocrinal system was not the best, not terrible, but when I am digestive tract, not so hot, but when I received help from Bob and the team and started to do the work for myself as well, I transformed. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  06:52

And I said, I didn't know I could feel this good. So I just want that for everybody. Wow. Can

 

Tonya Papanikolov  06:58

you imagine that had you incorporated some of these techniques when you were a ballerina, that your experience would have been a lot different,

 

Bonnie Crotzer  07:08

absolutely. I mean, if there is remorse, it would be that I would have to learn about this, this work when I was 1412, and 15 that would have been such a gift, like I would have really had a different experience as a professional. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  07:27

Luckily, I learned it at the end of my career, and, you know, I'm still dancing now, even though it's mostly not professionally, just a couple gigs here and there, that was also a gift to have that last few years of my professional dance career, I just felt like, wow, this is really a different level of articulation, a different level of balance of feeling integrated with my mind, body, spirit, emotional, body.

 

Tonya Papanikolov  07:57

I love this so much. I'm so curious, and I want to get to benefits and changes and like, I have questions around flexibility, and I would love to hear more about the digestive system and ways that it can support. But just to back up a little bit, how would you describe fascia to somebody that's really just like, Okay, I think it's everywhere, and that's all I know. And you know, it plays such a crucial role in our form and aspects of our health. So let's start with a little bit of a 101,

 

Bonnie Crotzer  08:29

great. I love fashion. 101, I always ask, at the beginning of my workshops, I ask people to raise their hand and see if they know what the word fascia is, or if they've ever heard the word, and nowadays, most people raise their hands, whereas 10 years ago, I was teaching workshop, that was not the case at all, let alone four years ago. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  08:50

So that's pretty fun thing that's occurring, that people are learning more about it. But yes, it's hard to pin down, because the nature of the fascia is to morph and change based on location in the body and its function in a particular zone or arena. Fascia means to bind or to hold, and that is certainly the aspect of fascia that most people are familiar with, but it does not describe its amazing brilliance and all of its functions. So let's start there. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  09:30

So fascia binds and folds things together. Some architects or contractors know this work to its use in building houses, to find things fashion the body, fascia is the one tissue that connects all other tissue. So in the simplest definition, I would go there, and fascia is also the great connector. Like I just said, it connects everything, but it also creates separation. And I'm doing separate. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  10:00

Operation in air quotes, because the fascia is ultimately continuous. There's never a break in the fascial matrix, but it does fold in on itself to create different compartments in the body. So it's the great connector, it's the great separator, and air quotes and fascia doesn't just wrap tissues, like some of us are familiar that the fascia wraps around muscle or wraps around bone or tendons, nerves, arteries, everything, you name it, but it also permeates and impregnates into integral anatomies, or the fascial the anatomists that study fascia versus classical anatomy, where we're looking at the body in parts or like a machine. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  10:50

We can talk about that later, but the integral anatomists would say it's so foundational that every single tissue is supported by a microscopic fascial matrix. And I kind of use this leaf thing. I've been saying it for a while, and then I went to a fascial course to redo what was going on. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  11:14

Big busted out this leaf. If you take a leaf and you put it in lemon juice, all the cellulose will come off, all the green bits, sorry, will come off, and all you're left with is a skeleton of the leaf. Right? Have you seen that at craft store? And then use it like prints on things? So that is actually equivalent to what's happening with the Fauci bodies. So all baseline material is fascia. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  11:43

So if we look at, I'm sorry, the vegetarians, if we look at a steak, you see the white marbling. That's not the fat, that's fascia. Also fat and fascia go together in and we have a microscope to the red tissue, you would also see this intricate matrix of these tiny fascial fibers creating the format for the muscle. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  12:08

In other words, I'm reading about grapefruit. So let's go grapefruit. We have the color grapefruit, which is orange or yellow, that would be our skin, and then we drop down a layer that would be our superficial fascia creating our engrossed compartment, our main compartment. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  12:25

And then you have the slice of the orange that's also or the grapefruit, wrong grapefruit, right now you have the slice the grapefruit that is found in a membrane that would also so let's pretend this is the quad. Is the quad is the grapefruit. So we have the outer thigh tissue wrapping the quad. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  12:45

Then we have all the slices. There's four quads in a quad, but now they're finding seven muscles and a quad, by the way, which is exciting. So we have the slice of the orange bound in fascia. We have the individual muscles bounded fascia. Now we get down from the slice down to the little lobules of juice, right? We've all seen those little lobules and citrus also bound by a membrane, right? That is also fascia. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  13:14

So that's how involved and foundational the fascia is, which is so cool. And then we also have the various kinds of fascia. So we have more membranous fascial like the easiest one to think of is the fascist surrounding your lungs, or the dura, the fascia surrounding the brain. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  13:33

It's more members like and then we have these very tiny spider web like fils that are linking, like the tiniest capillary to a lymphatic capillary, or any little, tiny, tiny attachment we have those beautiful fibers. It literally looks like a spider web, if it helps people visualize and then the peri fascia, that's even more chaotic, that's also a smaller version of fascia, that's fascia that's linking other fascias. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  14:06

And then we have more gross structural fascia like your lung, or thoracos fascia that's really thick in your low back, or the grand sheath of the IT band running down your leg. There's lots of different kinds. It's fun online and simulations and just see how gorgeous it is.

 

Tonya Papanikolov  14:29

Yeah, is any of the fascial any of those membranes like innervated so like, the nervous system is like, do they have nerves in them?

 

Bonnie Crotzer  14:38

Absolutely, the fascial matrix is innervated with nerves and other vasculature. So lymphatic vasculature are in cardiovascular vasculature. So and anatomist, classical anatomist, back in the day when they were really interested in describing the parts in our body, not just. Looking at the body as a whole, they would discard the fascia, you know, not like just, you know, they're interested in the parts. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  15:07

They wanted to get down and get rid of the connective tissue that was wrapping it. And so they're discarding the fabric that creates the continuity, but also that contains all this innervation. Now, we know that the fascia is actually our biggest proprioceptive organ. Now some integral anatomists are calling the fascia an organ, like the skin is an organ, or the nervous system should be considered an organ, etc, etc. So wow,

 

Bonnie Crotzer  15:41

that is highly

 

Bonnie Crotzer  15:43

proprioceptive. Lots of feedback from the brain, and information is traveling through the fascial matrix at the speed of light. Fascia conducts electricity. It conducts sound, many different amplitudes, I think, like 79 I think Mark Flanagan says that, and light, it conducts light. And so information is traveling through the fascial matrix faster than I bumped my arm on the wall. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  16:13

That message goes up to the brain, through my nervous system, goes back down to my arm. Ouch. Information is traveling faster through the fascial matrix than it is through the nervous system, which is incredible and wild to me. Fauci also conducts fluid, making sure that we have an even transference of fluid and fluid plus electricity, makes a great conduit, right? 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  16:40

The fascia is mostly made of collagen, and collagen is semi crystalline. So we have a liquid, semi crystal matrix in our body that is a great conduit of electricity. Now, if I was a Chinese medicine practitioner, and some Chinese medicine practitioners do say that electricity that the fascist transporting is Chi life force. So we might say that the fascial matrix is the matrix of communication and moving life force. So it's a very cool material, so

 

Tonya Papanikolov  17:20

wild, I think, like I'm seeing some overlap between the nervous system and the facial system in terms of, like external sensory input, like external world coming into the internal world. Are they working really closely together? Absolutely.

 

Bonnie Crotzer  17:37

And you know, just are the audience all the nerves are wrapped by fascia, so they're definitely playing in to each other. I can't remember exactly, but there is a new study out around enzymatic synapse between the nerves and the fascia. But I don't want to be cool quoted on that. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  18:01

But if I find that study, I'll send it over to you. The fascia in play with the nervous system. The fascia is also acting as an antenna to the outer world, because it's conducting that light and sound and frequency and current, any frequency coming at you or that you're, you know, in an environment where there is frequency, fascia is taking on that information, like radio antenna, and then vice versa, your energy is being transferred or transducted or conducted outwards. It's

 

Tonya Papanikolov  18:38

so cool. I'm so fascinated about the, like, whole electricity proprioception piece too. Like, I would love to, like, learn that more and also practice this and, like, understand the experiential effects of, like, what might happen I'm gonna start your courses, so I'm excited to dive in deeper

 

Bonnie Crotzer  18:58

the fascist also Pacio electric. And that's just a fun fact, but I love paci electric stuff. I

 

Tonya Papanikolov  19:05

have gone deep. Well, most of

 

Bonnie Crotzer  19:08

you all know, I'm sure, because you're educating everyone so beautifully at paci electric means produce your own electricity. And the fascia because of that collagen nature, or it's that it's made of collagen. When collagen is being rubbed, or crystal is being rubbed, what happens? 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  19:26

Friction creates heat, generates electricity. So the more you move your tissues around, the more you move your fascia, the more electricity you are generating, amplifying and that's kind of like a beautiful thing, Kylie, you were saying about your mental health. It's like you need to move in order to feel good in your mind. And your whole matrix is interconnected from your brain down to your toes, and moving that fascia is creating electricity, and therefore the more electricity generates. I think the horse foundation as well. That's just my thought.

 

Tonya Papanikolov  20:05

Do you know like, in terms of acupuncture? Are you familiar with, like, when the needle is going into the body? Yeah, are those meridians accessing nervous system fascia? Like, is the fascia playing a role? There?

 

Bonnie Crotzer  20:20

Absolutely good clue. And there's tons of studies, and lot of acupuncturists explain to their patients, yeah, the needles are working on your nervous system. Yes, of course. But that's proven that's definitely happening. Now we also see, and I learned this from Dr Dan Keown and Helene Langevin, who's doctor at Harvard, great information on when the needle goes in, especially when you twist it, you're manipulating the fascial matrix. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  20:53

And as those points are being manipulated, electrical signals are being sent through the fascia that I don't know if you've ever had this experience in acupuncture where you feel the energy travel, like it'll go and it'll sing, and then you're like, oh, wow, that went up to the side of my head. So

 

Tonya Papanikolov  21:11

crazy. I've had like points in my feet, and it's not always, but like moments in time where it's honestly like an electrical shock, I kid you not like electricity zinging through my body.

 

Bonnie Crotzer  21:23

It's the Chi flowing through your fascial matrix, and all of a sudden that needle is sending a signal to the cells of the fascia saying, like, let's jump start this zone acupuncture points, or acupressure points. They're one in the same there are areas in the body in which there is differentiation, where the cells need to communicate a lot in order to form our form. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  21:51

So when we're an embryo like we have a lot of acupuncture points around our wrist or our hand, around the elbow, around the shoulder. There are areas of differentiation when you're growing ourselves, and that's why we find the points in those areas of differentiation, because the cells really gather in those hubs to communicate with each other, and so the needle going into that hub is a like stimulating that primal organization, communication, etc.

 

Tonya Papanikolov  22:25

Okay, so, so like bookmarking a few things for us, benefits, like overall benefits. I'm really curious about your thoughts on flexibility, and if this could help that, and then kind of maybe some of the differences too, like with acupuncture or even, like manual massage, right? That's accessing fascia compared to something like flossing. What are the major differences? Benefits?

 

Bonnie Crotzer  22:50

Okay, so maybe we should start with what is Fash flossing, and then we can go back to those. I like that good idea. So bash flossing is a way to reconfigure the fascial fibers and try to decrease densified fascia, hardened fascia, brittle fascia, dehydrated fascia, and help it move back towards pliable, hydrated, functional, working at optimal fascia. In other words, our tissues need to glide and slide. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  23:26

They need to be able to twist and turn. They need to be or you hope that there's plenty of circulation capacity around those tissues and between those tissues because of life and or an accident, or we sit at the desk all day. We walk on concrete. These are all very normal things for our human existence right now. No problem. It's just over time our tissues begin to harden a little bit and or we may have some built up scar tissue from repetitive movement or an accident. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  24:00

And fascial flossing is a technique to help reintegrate, reconfigures, kind of the more appropriate term to bring our tissue back to what we could say homeostasis, but actually learned this new word last year, allostasis. So that's like an a neutral, but an evolving neutral. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  24:23

Whereas homeostasis might be a static place, we don't want static, but all of state, all of stasis state, there you go. Tongue twister. So some people are going to be online having a visual. Some people won't. So I'll try to do my best to explain the actual function of the Fauci blessing. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  24:43

We've all seen animals stretch and move their bodies, right? They go on the floor. They're pulling on the ground as they move their tissues around. They have this level of engagement, right? They're not just sitting in pigeon pose and hanging out and breathing. That's. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  24:59

Wrong with that, just saying that's not what the animals are doing. So we're taking a clue from the animals, because they clearly have instincts about how to keep their tissues healthy. And so what that the thing that they're doing is is called pendiculating. Penticulating to contract as you elongate, and we do it when we yawn. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  25:22

So when you wake up in the morning and you're kind of like and you're tugging at your tissues as you elongate, that's a natural way for our tissues to go back to that allostasis state. So we're taking that principle and applying it in a more organized fashion to most major muscle groups. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  25:42

Like I said before, muscles don't exist without fascia, but muscle groups because that's how we talk. So we're working on the strings, work on the quads, work on the upper traps, etc, etc. This concept can be applied to any area, any tissue in the body, as long as you can figure out how to contract plus elongate. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  26:02

Those are the two things that make the special sauce of the floss so contract and elongate. In other words, let's say I had a knot in my shoulder and the tissue is a little bit dense, it's discombobulated, it's a little disorganized, and it's a little bit hard in that zone, give some inflammation, there's not a lot of circulation. So I want to change that area because it would feel better if I did it, not because I have any other reason, except we want to be comfortable in our bodies, right? 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  26:33

So what healthy tissue would do? If it was myofascial, muscle and fascia combined, it would glide and slide on each other, twist and turn in any motion, like I mentioned before, if it said he's my fingers are like in this little conglomeration. It doesn't have movement quality that we want. It can't elongate, it can't contract, and that's why we apply the function of engagement plus elongation. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  27:02

So now I'm going to engage my trap. Can track the trap, and then I'm going to gently tug towards elongation phase. That tensile force that's applied to the fibers can either help them reorganize so that they have better glide and slide capacity, or any brittle, dry plastic fibers that aren't serving us can break apart, go into the bloodstream and get flushed out poop. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  27:29

Peace for one of those two things can happen. They watch this happen under an endoscope at Dr Jean Claude gimber toes lab in Bordeaux. Thank you to that whole team who got to see that and show those results. So then what you get after you floss is you have contraction capability and elongation capability. Contraction capacity is particularly important for building strength. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  27:56

There are areas in the body that we've tried to strength train, like the tricep perhaps, or the calves, like you're doing a million tricep curls, you're doing a million Calf Lifts, and your muscle tissue still can't expand. Why? Because the fascia is overly dense in that era, or constricting the tissue like a tourniquet. Now, all of a sudden, people could take my words and be like ah fascia, but remember, let's go back to how gorgeous and beautiful and intricate and also adaptable, which I didn't mention before, it's such a fabulous aspect of ourselves. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  28:34

So it's not like this technique is here to be like, I'm gonna go after my fascia, although maybe my lineage was a bit of that. But now we see that we want to work with the fascia, coax the tissue, instead of being like, I'm going to get rid of my fascia. I know there's people out there on the internet who say fascia disease, and I just want to dispel that in general,

 

Tonya Papanikolov  28:59

yeah, that's a really helpful misconception, because I was wondering, like, what they might be, if there are any that's so interesting. So in terms of, like, what practical tools is, fascia, techniques and flossing recommended to do every single day, and what about the people that are in the gym? Like, any recommendations is this like five minutes, 10 minutes at the end of workouts? Or what is the routine? Is there an ideal routine? So

 

Bonnie Crotzer  29:27

something I didn't say about batch flossing yet is that when we're working the tissue in that way with an engagement plus elongation. I mean, people can just try this on their bicep. You engage, and then you keep the engagement as you go into elongation phase. Unlike other practices, where we're working superficially, like say, we have a massage tool, or we're receiving manual massage, back to your original question, we're working from the outside to try to go in, right? 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  29:58

We have an external force. Course, but when you're doing contraction plus elongation, you're working from the center, center of your tissue, from the meat, the belly of the tissue. And so that's kind of an exciting thing about fascial flossing, is that you're really working from the interior. The other practices, of course, are a go over finding more and more that hard manual therapy. There's lots of research around this, not just my personal opinion, but that has been true for my personal journey. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  30:32

But if I'm a little bit more sophisticated with how I'm doing external manual work, I'm getting a better result in the long run, like if we're hitting the point where we're in pain and our nervous system is like, yeah, it could mean that our tissues are going to react and get harder and create an even more stressful environment. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  30:54

So that's something I love about Fauci flossing. You have two dials. You have your resistance style, how much you're engaging your tissue, and then how much range you're going into. And we're very much learning that the ranges need to be Reasonable. Reasonable ranges are a great idea, because also over stretching our tissues. I think you asked about flexibility and how it can help. When we're searching our tissues can also cause small micro tears, and over time, those small micro tears need to be repaired. Right? 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  31:34

Every night you do, let's say you love to try to do the splits or whatever. Okay, I mean, whatever position you're just like, really into getting into this particular range. And you're working on it. You're working on your your body's starting to change. You're getting there. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  31:49

But as you go, you're micro, tearing, um, very delicate muscle and facial fibers. And then the body overnight says, Hey, we need to repair these tears so the fiberglass, the cells that take care of the fat, should go in and lay down a new little strip of connective tissue, and you get another one, and then another one and another one, and eventually have a very dense, thickened tissue. That definitely happens in my kids career, over stretching, and that was for shades that I had to make, because that was my job. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  32:25

But now that I don't have to make them, I don't make them, even though sure I can tap into the splits if I want to, but I choose not to, in order to maintain a very juicy, elastic kind of tissue, versus if I was going far ranges, I would have hardened, thickened, I would have tissue that's just not as functional. And so that was really fun to balance out my tissues once I met Bob and the team and I started working in this way to stop over stretching. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  32:57

So this practice is so great for people who are hyper mobile, myself included, and people who are very stiff. So the body is going to adapt as you use this very instinctual technique, just like the animals are instinctually doing this pandiculating, we do it too. You've just been taught out of it, because that's just our movement heritage, right? Get into a close, go a little farther, breathe in and relax your nervous system. That all feels great, just as long as you're doing it in a very safe range. So with fascial flossing, you can dial your resistance down. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  33:37

If it feels like too much, you can turn it up a little bit, if you would like a little bit more from a

 

Tonya Papanikolov  33:43

like, physical perspective. Can you look at your body now that you've been doing this for so long, and actually, like, when you say juicy tissue, like, is there a physical appearance to that, or is it more experiential felt in the body? Is it both like, can you look at an arm and be like, Oh, I can, you know, tell the tightness in this part of the arm or limb?

 

Bonnie Crotzer  34:08

Yeah, I think I have guesses as to who has different types of tissue quality. And now we're all born with different tissue qualities as well. Some people are going to have super juicy, elastic, pliable tissue. Probably a superstar athlete has that kind of tissue just naturally. And then there's going to be more fibrous people, I would say I've included have more fibrous tissue just between the elastin and the collagen like how they combine, and ratio will determine that kind of quality in the tissue, whether you're sinewy or less, but certainly this work has changed that quality level. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  34:54

But I'll just speak for myself, I see a very big difference as to when I'm doing. And plenty of fast flossing, we're even better getting worked on by another person who does this work. And I would say there is a different look, but it's not just it's a quality decision. You're like, just esthetically looking. It's like the whole form. I would say the scorpions even more potent in that way of changing someone's architecture and posturing like all work on someone's shoulder, it will be up here by their ear, and then when I'm done working on that arm, it drops three inches. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  35:34

I'm not saying that to toot my horn. I'm just saying when you work on the fascia in this very particular way of a fasci flossing, you get a tremendous change, which is very exciting. And I don't have to work for you to get the change. It'll take longer, but you can do it on your own in a very amazing way. So

 

Tonya Papanikolov  35:54

cool. And so what's the kind of connection that you see between flossing facial facial health, is that right? Yeah, facial health and, like, emotional well being. How is that kind of closely linked?

 

Bonnie Crotzer  36:09

Yeah, that's such a nice question. It's all very linked. I think as humans, we love to separate. We love to understand and explain things. So we're going to separate our minds, our heart and our spirit, our emotional body, so that we can put them in categories and analyze them and figure them out. But I think an important piece from me learning about fascia that has provided so much peace and grace in my life is that everything is so interrelated. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  36:47

We are born whole. There's never a separation of church and state, so to speak. So it said, and many people read the book, The Body Keeps the Score, but I'm surely experienced how the fascia holds our stories. Annotate. I like to use that word annotate. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  37:07

My teacher, Joanne Avison, says that word annotates our life story into the fascial matrix. And that happens, there's a new study out once again, that I actually came across and I cannot find it, driving me crazy and hunting for it. So this because I'm going crazy, yeah, that is actually proving that that is true. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  37:32

And the house, there's like about there's maybe six or eight fabulous hypotheses of functions that are already occurring in the body, either food transduction or a biochemistry function that are storing memories, emotions, residual hormones inside the fascial matrix, Bob used to say this, which makes perfect sense if you're not available to process process in occurrence or feeling, etc, consciously, and the fascial will take it on and store it for you until you're ready to go through it and release it, or transmute it, or compost it, whatever It is. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  38:18

So there's definitely play between the facial continuum and your emotional body. And what's cool about Chinese medicine is that they observe the body for centuries, and they have a kind of a beautiful road map of where different emotions land per Meridian or landing within the location inside the body. So for instance, where we want to go? Which Meridian do we want to do? Let's go liver. So liver channel runs up your inner thighs, spleen. I'm so curious

 

Tonya Papanikolov  38:57

about the spleen. Let's go spleen.

 

Bonnie Crotzer  39:01

We're so glad you're a request now I have some, okay, but let me say this first, besides the brilliant system has this whole database, essentially of associated behavioral traits and feeling Jones in the body, we think some anatomists and or some, sorry, very high level acupuncturists think that a facial matrix, like we're saying before, are relative to these meridian lines. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  39:31

Meridian is a made up thing. There's no just like, I don't like you drew on a map and drew inside the body. It's a function of the fascia, creating a channel, a space in which the cheek can flow. So we're going spleen, we're going up the inner leg right and up into the hip joint and into the torso, and then linking up very slightly, just to the upper rib cage, and going. A little bit posterior, towards the inner part of our torso, or the inner back side of the torso, I should say. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  40:06

And spleen channel is associated with peacefulness, creating harmony, interconnection, self martyrdom. Spleen and stomach are the earth element of Chinese medicine. Earth element is the special fifth season that we don't have in our western four seasons there's five and spleen comes, or when the spleen channel is most available for change and benefit, that is the time where we're actually kind of, we're just entering earth element season towards in August, into early harvest time. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  40:50

Spleen loves to get quiet and look at everything that has been produced. So spleen has great perspective. This is the time of year where you look at the landscape in all you take in what is in front of you. And I think it's very spiritual meridian, yeah, the low side, did I already say self sacrifice or martyrdom? Yeah,

 

Tonya Papanikolov  41:15

that's really, really fascinating, just based off of my own kind of healing journey right now, that's really cool and

 

Bonnie Crotzer  41:22

anatomic. Dan Keon has a great section book about the spleen and how we have many different types of serotonin, actually seven types, and how when the red blood cells, because the spleen is filtering out red blood cells that aren't functional anymore. So they should be a nice filled in donut shape. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  41:44

They're that shape so that they can bend and squeeze through the Teenies, tiniest capillaries, if they lose part of a side or something, they're not as flexible to move through those vessels. And so the swing filters those out. When they're flexible like that, they can soft up excess serotonin, or, really, any kind of toxin that's floating in the body. Well, you know what? 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  42:11

Don't quote me on that little part of it, because I don't remember if I'm saying it right. But what I do remember is that if there's too much serotonin flooding our gut, it will transfer up into the brain and activate the part of the brain that is associated with OCD, aka ruminating, thoughts, worrying. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  42:34

So one of the lower traits of spleen is overthinking and worry or not, that's an inability to concentrate, rumination, yes, looking at seeing how can help with that stuff, as well as, on a physiological level, mopping up mucus, inflammation, like spleen, associated with mucus and phlegm. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  42:59

And that also has to do with the shape of the red blood cells. If those blood cells aren't moving through those tiny vessels, little debris, you know, toxins and air quotes, anything in excess in the fluid that's being stuck behind the stuck red blood cells, you have that extra stuff in the fluid. You have heat from the body, and then you have lack of flow. What cooks up is phlegm. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  43:26

So yeah, if Ling is functioning well, it's filtering your blood, red blood cells. Well, plus you have another whole aspect of that has to do with the lymphatic system. We don't have to go there right now, but essentially, it's prevent the build up of mucosal

 

Tonya Papanikolov  43:44

mucus. Yeah, and I feel like what we're missing in, like, why I love also going into the Chinese understanding within TCM, of a lot of these organs, is that, like, we don't have those equations, like in western science and medicine that's like, there's also emotions and mental aspects that are associated with all these organs that's not really discussed here. So I love bringing that in. And what book was it that you mentioned about, like, somebody having a chapter, yeah,

 

Bonnie Crotzer  44:16

dovetail and that. And like you said, all of those parts of us, all those different emotional, mental, physical, spiritual bodies. The fascia is a demonstration of that wholeness and how it's linking every system together. So we send that. That book is The sparking machine by Dr Dan Keown, who is a western medicine emergency room doctor, doctor, as well as PhD acupuncture study with Master in China, and he wrote that book to explain how the fascia can can explain why Chinese medicine works from a Western medicine perspective. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  44:58

So it's a really fun. Both can be but at least read the first five chapters if you're out there and curious, it's really great start to learning about how fascia and TCM are combined. Very

 

Tonya Papanikolov  45:11

cool. I want to, yeah, maybe shift gears a little bit quickly to chat about. I'm just kind of curious about pain, because that's such a chronic pain is such a common thing can be mysterious for a lot of people. And I'm just curious too, with like, when you're working with people and you see stress manifestations. 

 

Tonya Papanikolov  45:32

So from my personal experience, every once in a while I'll get like, so usually, if I'm stressed out in a period of life for work, and I get like, a crazy, like, it's like a nerve kink, and I lose my mobility, and, like, my nerves and my muscles are really inflamed and there's tension. What do you think is, you know, happening there where, like, you somebody wakes up overnight, and there's there's pain, and there's something that happened? 

 

Tonya Papanikolov  45:59

I'm sure it's so many things like, what things you just mentioned about, the subconscious needs to pro time to process, and that sometimes that storage is going to muscles and nerves and fascia. But just kind of curious to hear about your take on what you see, any insights,

 

Bonnie Crotzer  46:16

right? That is a trickier topic in general, because, like you said, there's so many factors, and it's all so personal to each person. I'll just speak to my experience for now is that, like you said, when I'm stressed or I have higher levels of information, I'm definitely experiencing also pain in my upper shoulders and neck. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  46:40

Otherwise, I feel pretty lucky, but I was experiencing a lot of pain in my dance career, and changing my tissue in this particular way has had extraordinary results, and I stopped being in pain. I slipped to this when I was 15. So I was always struggling with my lower back, my sea crown, seem to be out. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  47:04

And I think what's important to remember is that the fascia is forming our form as much as we are forming the fascia. Fascia is forming our structural alignment, if you don't mind calling that our structural architecture. And the fascia is working via tension and compression, and when those things are in balance, we get suspension. That's just one way I like to think of it. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  47:32

So none of our bones are really supposed to be touching each other. If our bones are touching, we have arthritis, right? That's very uncomfortable, but the fascia is there to make sure the bones and the joints have enough space, space in air quotes, because there's no space in the body. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  47:51

There's just it's fluid filled. But you don't want bone on bone, in other words, and so by changing the fascia, you change how the bones set up in your body, because fascia is holding the bones in place, and by changing how the bones are in place, you get a structural integrity that could create a lot more comfort in the body, versus like if we have posturing that was a little bit more forward With our shoulders and forward neck, with our texting and etc, I could go on all day about the different cost sharings, but I think that's a good way to start, because not only doing architectural structural change, you're also increasing circulation and then so key. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  48:36

I mean, it's so simple, right? I feel like Chinese medicine is good at that, like keep it simple, because what do you get with circulation? You get oxygenation, you get nutrients, and you got waste removal. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  48:49

Those three functions need to be happening in the body all the time and well, and when we don't have those things, then you see a build up of fluid that could be pushing on your nerves, creating more pain. It could be pain actually within the fascia. But also, I wanted to mention this when we're talking about innovation earlier, is the interesting thing that Bob has identified, and like I also see in my clients, but this is, I have zero research around this, or scientific identification, but when we are resisting in an eccentric contraction, essentially, that's what flossing is. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  49:30

A client is resisting. Let's say I'm doing their hamstrings and they're kicking down the floor, and I'm lifting their hamstring up to floss it. They're keeping down, I'm lifting up. There's tremendous amounts of force for me, like pounds and pounds of force. I can barely lift the leg, so I'm efforting like crazy. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  49:51

They barely feel like they're doing anything. They're keeping down there. That's the interesting thing. A phenomenon of a facial matrix is because it uses compression. Intention. It's a bio tensegrity structure. You don't need to know that. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  50:04

Essentially, you're able to incorporate all the forces of that matrix of that tensegrity structure to create this one action. So the fashion can be stronger than steel per weight. It's like really wild stuff. So I'm lifting their leg up, they don't feel like they're doing anything. Areas where that's telling me that is an area of densified fascia. But why are they not really feeling anything? 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  50:31

I have Bob tagged this first that perhaps the densification of the fascists actually preventing feedback to the brain, and I've experienced this even like versus my left or my right side, I have less consciousness in an area versus another area, and I think that's due to densified fascia, or hardened fascia, etc. Well, pain is really a tricky slippery slope, so in a lot of ways. I will just say changing your structure and changing your inflammation levels are really kind of like key besides managing stress, and Life is stressful, I get that that part is not the simple part, right? 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  51:15

And it's hard to get ahead. Sometimes it's hard to get ahead, even if you're doing all the things right, you're trying all these things set it up. I mean, we have to try a lot of things on our journey to figure out what works for you now this course and then, but sometimes we really need other people's help, and that's a nice thing, because we're all here to help each other, essentially.

 

Tonya Papanikolov  51:39

Thank you for that, where do you recommend somebody start? Do you think like the one on one sessions? Are you know, really important, or is something like some of your classes a really great place to begin?

 

Bonnie Crotzer  51:54

Great question. I think starting with self practice is amazing. So you can practice with me online. For my website, I have a subscription with there's lots of videos on there, and any topic from stress relief to ankles and feet to pelvic work to shoulder work. There's a lot of options on there, so you can really target what you need at first and then kind of work in a more general way. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  52:20

You mean that a lot done for yourself on your own course, one on one is a lot harder to do. There's not that many of us in the world that have studied with Bob and continue, you know, in our own versions of course, to use this modality as more of a one on one, hands on practice. So in that way, it's like further and farther between to be able to get that particular kind of help. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  52:49

And that's why I built the site, is because I wanted this to be accessed universally. And I am so thankful and so motivated by everyone who's written and know about how much it's changed their lives, and so I will speak from their feedback, only that they are bringing really amazing change for themselves. And it just makes me cry like it touches my heart. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  53:18

So that is kind of a beautiful way. And then if you, you know, don't have someone like myself, doing private sessions nearby, you can do other things. You can get a gentle roll thing session. You can get acupuncture, get lymphatic drainage, like a real license manual lymphatic drainage practitioner. That is like such a potent thing. I feel like the limb systems finally having it's, you know, getting people to get involved. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  53:49

And your fascia, if you're flossing and you're getting lymphatic drainage, your fascia is like the umbrella tissue, like I said before, some lips within fascia, if you've had and he's down to five fascia lymph flows could be limited, so changing your fascia is essentially supporting your lymph and then then to get the drainage from there. Like, yeah, we like that for people. Do

 

Tonya Papanikolov  54:15

you think the lymph, lymphatic drainage needs to be those, like, compression machines, or is that more manual,

 

Bonnie Crotzer  54:22

oh, classical manual lymphatic drainage session is done with somebody's hands. Yeah, I've never done that. The magic of their hands with good intent, which is actually magic. But yeah, yeah, when hands on touch, if it's well intended, can change the fluid and the gel fascia instantaneous. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  54:44

So, you know, that's so magical. Yeah, I love those compression pants. I use them when I was performing in June, and I couldn't believe how much I was very amazed. I was like, thank you to those compression bands. So if that's what you want to try, great,

 

Tonya Papanikolov  55:02

yeah, yeah, that's fair. That's that's cool. One more question before we wrap up is, we didn't we just kind of skimmed on some of the benefits, like, like, you know, structural changes. But also, can you tell us a little bit more about digestive system, immune system, yes,

 

Bonnie Crotzer  55:23

yeah. We, yeah. We got architectural, structural change, which is cool. We also, we've got our lymphatic system changing, which also will go with the detail on to that is our fluid in our body, just our whole fluid dynamic system, or making sure that the fascia is transforming those fluids evenly, which has a big deal in inflammation, of course, and the amount of circulation that can occur between systems, interstitial fluids within the extracellular matrix, so like the ocean of our body, so to speak. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  56:02

And then, of course, that plays into your lymph, and then the lymph turns into plasma. So we're getting benefits across the ocean of your body, where all of our fascial planes chains, how we want to say it integrate into the organ. So if you're moving your limbs around, you're also working the fascia within the torso body, which is relative to the organs. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  56:28

And if we're using the Chinese medicine map, you can target certain organs like your stomach, your spleen, your liver, etc, via this meridian, amazing, brilliant Meridian roadmap. So when I first started getting work, actually, my first private session, my tummy was gurgling the whole time. Yes, I was going into digestion. Yeah, mine does that always too digest and rest. What am I doing in parasympathetic? I'm forgetting

 

Tonya Papanikolov  57:01

right now, rest and digest. That's how long

 

Bonnie Crotzer  57:05

praise you so my organs, but I felt beyond that, that my organs were receiving this interesting change, because we're working on the fascia in the legs, you're in the arms, the organs are also receiving that, not just energetically, but it's an actual structural tub. So if I'm working on my quad, I'm also working on my stomach. If I'm working on my the chain of fascia that's relative to the quad and the stomach, it's also working on my voice box. It's also working on my jaw. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  57:40

So everything is so connected. But let's see we have digestive change, immune system, of course, and then mental health is you're decreasing your inflammation. You're having less brain fog. There's also we can consider some of the fascial chains that go up into the head, like you're having compression of the school due to an accident or concussion, etc, you can change the tissue on the sides of your head and create a little bit more relief there, back, then, up, of course, to right at the opposite foot.

 

Tonya Papanikolov  58:12

Such a funny question, because basically, I think to listeners, it's like the description that you gave us about the spleen, where you got into these like the most, like, Who would ever know that martyrdom, or, you know, some self sacrificing would connect to that organ? 

 

Tonya Papanikolov  58:28

But I think the beauty is, like, we would not even have enough time to touch on it, because what I'm hearing is that it's just, it's full body support every single organ, and all of the functions are like, fascia is vital in all of their healthy functioning. So it's like, yeah, like you said, mental, emotional, spiritual, physical. It's like, this really beautiful, interwoven network. I've had moments where I'm like, oh, because, you know, I rainbo is a, you know, a functional mushroom brand.

 

Tonya Papanikolov  59:01

 And so I have moments of being like, oh, it's like, I'm seeing a little bit of, you know, some mycelium, you know, similarities that they provide

 

Bonnie Crotzer  59:10

absolutely and your brand is so gorgeous. I really love your products. And thank you, gently formulated or defined. So I agree from the outside, seeing how the mycelium network works and communicates it's so similar to the fascial matrix, I'm curious if we could get some research on facial health and mushrooms, like, what mushrooms doing for the fascia and specifically, would be cool see,

 

Tonya Papanikolov  59:42

there's a lot of, like, interesting correlations between a forest immune system and and mycelium network. So it's yeah, that would, I mean, to actually have, I think, intuitively, their intelligence, also in our bodies, they begin to, like, create those connections in. 

 

Tonya Papanikolov  1:00:00

Different ways, like through chemicals and different compounds that are eliciting responses in the body, but also bringing that external intelligence in to form connections in different ways. It's so cool, and I'm so excited for you to try rainbo and to have it at your retreat. And yeah, I'm so so grateful for your time and sharing all this incredible knowledge and passion with us. I have learned so much today. 

 

Tonya Papanikolov  1:00:27

I'm literally, it's 1pm I'm going to be doing one of your classes. I'm so excited. I'll let you know how it goes. And could you tell us maybe just where to find you, how to, how to, we'll link everything in the show notes as well. Best

 

Bonnie Crotzer  1:00:44

way to find me is at the floss.com nice and simple. Just make sure you put that in there, otherwise you have to dance and the floss.com that's where you can subscribe and get involved with all those incredible movement videos that include fascia flossing. And I'm also at fascia department, that is my more educational platform on Instagram. So at fascia department pretty simple. 

 

Bonnie Crotzer  1:01:12

And then you can also find me at quarantine for my personal too. So it's great to be with you today. Oh my gosh, designed to happen. Yes, you do all the things, and it's really, I really appreciate you having me on. Yeah,

 

Tonya Papanikolov  1:01:30

thank you so much. Thank you for being here with deep gratitude. Thanks for tuning into this episode. If you liked it, hit subscribe and leave us a review that is always very appreciated. 

 

Tonya Papanikolov  1:01:43

Mushrooms transform to my mind and body. And if you're interested in bringing medicinal mushrooms into your life and health journey, check out rainbo.com for our meticulously sourced Canadian fruiting body mushroom tinctures. Until next time, peace in and peace out.

 

Keywords:

fascia flossing, Bonnie Crotzer, collagen, immune system, tcm, traditional chinese medicine, acupuncture, acupressure, stretching, flexibility, hypermobility, stiff joints 

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