How to Stop Desire Hoarding and Start Living with Michelle Pellizzon

Show Notes: 

In this thought-provoking episode, Tonya Papanikolov sits down with writer, strategist, and multidimensional creator Michelle Pellizzon to explore the tension between ambition and authenticity, mystery and mastery, and how we can live project-based lives without burning out. From embracing confusion to rethinking productivity, Michelle shares insights on creative evolution, spiritual agency, and her own journey of building a peaceful, self-defined life. The two dive into desire, competition, mystery, and the strange beauty of letting go of control — even when life feels unpredictable.

You’ll hear about:

• The value of embracing mystery and the unknown and why confusion can be a creative superpower
• The concept of “project-based living” and how it liberates creators from linear career paths
• The role of mystery, reverence, and ruthlessly clear values in modern life
• Redefining jealousy, competition, and desire as creative information
• How AI is changing creativity — and how to keep our human spark alive
• Finding peace and joy amid uncertainty and change

Connect with Michelle Pellizzon: 

Website: holisticism.com 

Instagram: instagram.com/holisticism/

Substack: thetwelfthhouse.substack.com/

Podcast: thetwelfthhouse.substack.com/podcast

Connect with Tonya:

• Follow Tonya on Instagram: @tonyapapanikolove
• Sign up for Tonya’s Newsletter
• Rainbo.com and @rainbomushrooms
• Try Fungki Mushroom Coffee
• Try Fungki Herbal Mushroom Coffee

Resources: Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman

A Project of One's Own Essay by Paul Graham

 

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Show Transcript:

Tonya: Well, okay. We were just talking about Enclothed cognition 

Michelle: One of my favorite concepts.

 Tonya: How cool that is because I, had this realization, I don't know, somewhat recently where I was like, I wanna wear my nice clothes every day. What am I waiting for? I have invested in quality pieces. I wanna look nice, I wanna feel nice. I shouldn't be brushing my teeth at 4:00 PM Like, what the hell? 

Michelle: Totally. Yeah. And it's like very easy to. Hmm, let me walk it back. I think our society makes it, very easy to sort of like relegate beauty, and like taking care of oneself and like presenting oneself to. being vapid or being stupid or like, it's not worthwhile unless it's contributing to your health in some way.

Michelle: but we know as we were talking about with unclothed cognition that your brain literally changes based on what you're wearing. They've done studies where people have put on lab coats as like dressed like doctors and then taken an IQ test, and they have higher. IQ points, they score higher than they do when they wear sweatpants and take the same test. so I think the same goes for like, it's neuroaesthetics, right? So if you have like a beautiful space around you that can inspire you and make you think differently versus like, being in a school that has fluorescent overhead lights and doesn't have AC and doesn't have any windows that let in, the sunlight, it changes the way our brains work. 

Tonya: Totally. I wanna talk about Neuroaesthetics with you too, but I guess I'll just back up for one moment to say hello and welcome Michelle, and thank you so much for being here.

 Michelle: Thanks for having me. It's so nice to be here. I've we've had this on the books for a while and I've been looking forward to it, and I'm very happy that you had your, it looked like gorgeous vacay. How are you feeling now that you're back?

Tonya: It was a gorgeous vacay. I am like back in full swing. We have a product launching in like two and a half weeks, so that's been, full on, but it was like six weeks of being with family in Paradise and hosting the retreat and um, yeah. And that was just like such a beautiful. Little break. The whole thing wasn't a break. I was doing some work and, you know, whatever, had some stuff come up. But, when I got back, I felt like, okay, I'm just present and here for this kind of like big monumental finishing off of pushing a big stone up a hill before a launch.

 Michelle: Yeah. What day are you launching? I've got my, do you know about the good timing guide? 

Tonya: No, but I just did work with an astrologer, an electional astrologer to pick our date. And so we have like the timeframe, the exact minute that it is 

Michelle: better. Okay, that's even better 'cause it's like specific to you guys. I love the good. Wait, let me show you the Good timing guide. So I'll show you August. So it looks like this. They have a like actual book that you can get, but I like the PDF looks like this and. Basically you pick, based on the different, let's say, it's new starts, contracts and negotiations, marketing, communication, and travel, and then like final result of the project. So you can pick the day that you're going to do something like ask for a raise or launch a product or start a marketing campaign based on how it looks. Astrologically, it's fun. 

Tonya: what does August 15th say?

Michelle: August 15th is good. That's a good day. August 12th and August 15th are very good days and kind of a tough month because we're at Mercury retrograde, ' 

Tonya: yeah, we'll be like phase out of it, but then it's also before eclipse 

Michelle: Yes, exactly. there's a window between like the 12th and then basically the 19th that's like, okay, this is good, Probably won't be like a total shit show. Um, and then it gets a little scary. It gets a little dicey after that.

Tonya: I mean, and it's something I've been thinking about, when is the best time to launch something in general? There's always something like, I would never imagine anticipate launching on a Friday afternoon. yeah, people are gonna checked out. It's the middle of the summer, but we'll see. I'm just trusting. It's also like, you put a lot of undue pressure on lunches sometimes, and it's like, no, this is like. Your thing that you're gonna be talking about forever and releasing some of that. 

Michelle: most people's products are not like drop model products, right? Where it's like, we're making these, we have to sell them out 'cause we're not making it again, and we need to recoup all of our expenses for production. that's not really the world that we live in anymore. So it's okay. But I like the good timing guide or just looking at astrology in general. To just give me a clue of like, what I should be aware of. I would honestly probably launch something on a, bad day if it worked for everything else in my life and be like, well, I just know I gotta like really keep my shit tight. I gotta make sure that my marketing message is on and that I've double checked everything, and that I'm maybe like a little bit more on deck than I tend to be And that's okay. it's just awareness, 

Tonya: Yeah. I love that. okay, well I love to start conversations with, a little moment of gratitude actually, and I have been reflecting on you and the magical place that is your mind. And you do. I'm like, just obsessed with your substack. And I'm reading it. but wow. Like just the thoughts, the depth and the mystery and there's a lot happening and you do so many things and you're a researcher and a strategist and a writer and a, witch and et cetera, et cetera. How are you defining yourself these days? What are you grateful for in this beautiful way that you've set this life of yours?

Michelle: Wow. What a good question. I am grateful for not to be a cop out answer, but literally everything. I had a, thought the other day. I was like, oh, my life is so peaceful. I have a peaceful life and that doesn't mean that I don't experience hardship or anxiety or, you know, all the things, difficult moments, fear, But I just have a peaceful life for the most part. and I think that has been hard one, maybe. and also kind of a practice of reclaiming my agency and remembering that I always have agency, I always have choice. A thing I repeat to myself a lot is, there's always a more creative way to get what you want. So if I really want something. I can figure out how to get it. It might not be the way that I thought I was gonna get it. It might take longer, but the only one really stopping me is me. And I think that just, gives me a sense of. of breath in my life. So I don't really know how I'm defining myself at the moment. probably I've looped back around to Multihyphenate and it definitely depends on who I'm talking to. But I just feel really lucky and everyone in my life is really healthy right now. And that's really the only thing I could ask for. that everyone stays healthy and good and we can figure anything out. we can figure out how to be happy anywhere and with anything as long as we all have our health. 

Tonya: Yeah. I love that answer. Thank you. 

Michelle: Yeah. 

Tonya: I'll share a quick tidbit. I am, I guess, yeah, just kind of like riffing off that a little bit. What that led me to was, I think this sense of surrender that is. Really helpful. I wanna talk about goals and projects with you, but I think there's this, ultimate destination that's in mind and we think it's gonna look a certain way and we can kind of like sometimes.

Tonya: just induce suffering when we are really tied to it going that way, when really it's just like this Yeah. Spiral path that might not even go there, but it's gonna go somewhere that is gonna be awesome. And I think just, feeling gratitude for the ability to kind of like surrender to like, oh, I think I want this thing. Oh actually I'm just gonna like let go of that completely. And see where life takes me. And if it's meant it'll come. and if it's not then like I'm also okay with that. And I think that that helps also just like get you in more of a magnetic place of like, yeah, not being in that space of like wanting so much. 

Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think. we create our own, drama or like we create our suffering, right? Like, if I'm suffering, it's probably my fault. but also like easier said than done to be like, well release suffering. release the grasp. Well, it's kind of hard to sometimes. Something that I come back to over and over again to help myself. 'cause I'm like, I don't know, formerly ambitious, I guess. that's what I'd call myself, but I still wanna do big things. And sometimes, I guess the way that I think about them now is it's less about ambition, it's more about curiosity and finding what's, I'm just curious. I wanna know what would happen if I did this thing? and. Part of that curiosity, I also have to be honest with myself and be like, and am I trying to like impress someone or do like exert something about myself, prove something about my identity or who I am through this achievement or this acquisition of a talent or something like that. And just kind of be honest. And even if I'm like, yeah, I'm trying to prove too. My dad that I'm smart. kind of like knowing that that's my motivation helps me level set the experience. 'cause it helps me be honest about like, well. Maybe that's a goalpost that's gonna continue to move. So this won't be the thing. This won't be the big thing that proves to him that you're smart. that's a lifelong journey. but, just trying to be honest with myself, it can't always be, you don't always realize it until you're like neck deep in it. But hopefully you can clock it as you're walking the path, and like right side your 

Tonya: Totally. I love that. I think that that comes through so much in what I've read of your writing and, how you express and the things you talk about is that there is like a really radical self-honesty that I have found really inspiring, 

Michelle: Oh, thank you. It's not very likable, I will tell you that it definitely rubs people the wrong way. 

Tonya: were you always that way? Because I know you have had a traditional career in tech and startups, and were you really honestly, ambitious for those things at that moment? And then as with maturity, you were kind of like, oh, actually I'm just like kind of growing outta this and now I'm going this way.

Michelle: Tough to say. I mean, I grew up as a dancer wanting to be a professional dancer, so I was like, I gotta do, I gotta be the best. And that means getting into the best programs, going to the best schools, being at the top of my class, getting into the best companies, whatever. but then it became about being the best and not like, do I actually wanna do this thing? And then when I finally. Did all that. I was like, oh, this kind of sucks. I don't really wanna do this. and getting into tech was kind of an accent because I had a degree in dance and I felt like, ugh, no one's gonna take me seriously. and I wanna help people, but I feel like business is a way to do that. if I have a corporation or if I have institutional money behind me, I can make a bigger difference than being one single person, which is not necessarily true. but I was like, where can I hack? That. 'causeI don't wanna go be like an ea. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just didn't wanna go slow. and I knew someone who got a job at a tech startup and who was the third employee at Peerspace and he was like, he didn't know what he was doing, so he was an idiot. And he became the director of marketing in like six weeks. And I was like, well I could do that. So, that's what got me into tech. And probably what I liked about tech so much is that it was like trial by fire in a way. If you wanna do something, prove you can do it, not what's your pedigree? Well, it probably is now more in tech. What's your pedigree? But before this was a long time ago, 13 years ago.

Michelle: can you do it? Great. If you can do it, then that's your job. Now prove that you can do it. play around with it, experiment with it. so that was my motivation to getting into tech was Almost like in a video game, gathering my coins of like, experience or like, clout of I've been able to do these things, to get people to trust me or like open doors. Where I knew I could do it if I was given the opportunity. so that was kind of like my motivation in tech. And then when I started holistic and ended up raising money and doing all this stuff that was sort of more traditional tech path, and then gave the money back. 'cause I was like, oh my God, I don't actually wanna do this. definitely I got swept up in the idea of there's only one way to do this and I gotta do it this way 'cause this is how everyone's doing it and I think that this is like close enough. It's not exactly what I want, but you have to make some compromises. and that's not false. You do have to compromise. but those were not the right compromises for me. I think, I've also always been motivated by spite and like proving people wrong. 

Tonya: I love that. Will you tell us more about that 

Michelle: Oh, well I'm a Scorpio moon, so I'm insane. do you have any Scorpio on your chart? 

Tonya: I do. I mean, Pluto, uh, I dunno how to answer that question. I'm Taurus. So I do feel connected to Scorpio and then yes, there is, I wouldn't be able to ram it off, but. Yeah, I'm gonna try and pull up my chart. 

Michelle: Maybe some of your outer planets. Yeah, I think we both probably have Pluto, Scorpio, yeah, I just have always been really motivated by. Someone very, thoughtfully and gracefully called it healthy competition, like a healthy relationship to competition with myself and with other people who told me I couldn't do something. and I think I used to be really embarrassed about that and be like, oh, I'm not competitive or like, I'm only competitive with myself. And that's not true. That's not true. I see people who have things and I'm like, I want that. Why do they have that? And I don't have that. Like what? I could do that. And I love it when I'm jealous because it's just a flag that there's something there that's interesting to me. I don't want their life, I'm not ready to like wear their skin around, you know? I'm not trying to be weird. It's just like, oh, that's so interesting. I didn't even know that wasn't even my realm of possibility of something I wanted and. Now it's here. And what is it that I want about that thing? Like my friend just got a book deal for, writing her family's recipes down. I was like, that's so cool. What is so cool about that to me? And kind of like doing a little like dive on. It just revealed some things That I had no idea were things that I wanted to continue to explore. And it's not that I wanna write a cookbook about my family's recipes, that'd be boring. and it's not that I don't want her to have that. It's something, something else. And I would've been able to figure that out, but I was able to figure it out more quickly. Through that, like jealousy, alchemizing, some awareness. So I think that kind of like the spite and the jealousy go hand in hand of it's interesting information and being motivated by someone, thinking something about me how I perceive them, incorrectly, I don't know, like clocking me.

Michelle: Tells me how I care to be perceived, like what matters to me, the values that I wanna be seen holding. so yeah, I love it when I get spiteful. 

Tonya: Yeah. it's so interesting. I was just last night before bed having a conversation with Simon, my partner. I was like, yeah, in this Mode of like comparison. And he was like, he's off social media and so he doesn't relate to that side, to that piece that it's like kind of really innate to it, that you can get into like modes anyways. and he was just kind of like, well, you know, people are doing that with you too. 

Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

Tonya: I was like, oh, right. 

Michelle: Right? 

Tonya: Oh, oh my goodness. so I love the just kind of sitting in the kind of openness of being like, oh, what is it about what that person was doing? That's making me feel that way. is it that I want that thing? Oh no, not really, but you can chip away and discover something that's like underneath that emotion. 

Michelle: and it's Exactly, yeah. There's a million ways to also do that, right? Like we can do that through like journaling or self work or whatever, taking some psychedelics and connecting to our future self. it's just that we live in a society where it's very easy to connect with that, like jealousy and honestly to see. Elements of other people's worlds that we were never privy to, before. So it's kind of cool in a lot of ways to know what's possible. like I never thought I'd be an entrepreneur. I just had never seen anyone do that. other than like, I don't know. Stockbroker guys. or like owning a store and I didn't wanna do that. so yeah, I think it's cool, but also it can be a little, I know it's kind of off-putting 'cause people want, women to be nice, you know, people want women to be like understanding and, especially maybe people who are like more. Philosophical or who are spiritual questioners, they really like, are expecting you to be, economists, economists about everything. and that ain't me, babe. So yeah, I love my spite and, I'm much better now at controlling it and understanding it than I was before. 

Tonya: Yeah. Other thing I wanted to talk to you about was I love what you wrote really recently about being more confusing, and I know you're pretty anti niche and like, let's dive in there. 

Michelle: Mm-hmm. 

Tonya: Yeah. 'cause that's, there's so much to that. There's so much to that. And we exist in a world and a marketing thing, whatever we wanna call this marketplace of life and the internet, where that clarity is appreciated. By others in some ways, and yet there's such liberation in just letting things be a little bit mysterious and UNFI outable, especially for creatives.

Michelle: one of my personal values is mystery, so that's gonna be important to me. Yeah,

 Tonya: Yeah. 

Michelle: very. Another one is a reverence. If that tells you anything about me. I have five. but I get why we want to be easy to understand because. How we want to control the narrative of how people perceive us for a couple reasons. First, because if we can control the narrative, it makes it easier for someone else if we like give them a like one liner of like, this is who I am, this is what I do, this is what I like, and it all works together. See then. That's easy for them. Right? And it's like, well then we don't have to maybe go through the hard work or messy work of like getting to know someone. We can kind of just jump into business or a conversation or whatever. Right. which I kind of like push back on and question. I think you can jump into a conversation with a stranger. You don't know. You don't need to know their byline. Isn't that what people do at Burning Man? They don't use like real names in their, you don't talk about your, your job. Like it's possible. Right. I've never been to Burning Man, but I've heard, and also because when we understand people, when we understand someone, we're measuring our safety. There's a book called Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kaman, and I think it's in this book. He talks about the different, there's thinking one and thinking two, and how. If thinking one is slower, it's where we're let's say holding something up and we're like, what is this? And we're thinking about it and we're using clues and tasting it and smelling it to make a decision about what it is. And then we're ultimately like, okay, I think this is a drink. I think this is a soda. I think this is a treat, whatever. Versus I think thinking too is like heuristics, it's making shortcuts. Like cognitive shortcuts, because if we were to look at everything in our life and be like, what is this? We would literally never make it out the door because the reason that we're considering, you know, these things is to basically going back to caveman status. Are we safe or not? is this gonna kill me? Is this gonna bite my face or poison me or blow up? And, of course, that's necessary In order to operate within the world, we have to assume that a stoplight is gonna work the same every, every time we see a stoplight. It's not a whole brand new system that you have to learn, every time you come up to a stoplight.

Michelle: otherwise we would, we would ne never get anything done, but. Those sort of like shortcuts or stereotypes that we make about a person or a thing. they're incredibly limiting and they're nuanced. So we do it, we create shortcuts for people to understand us, to help other people feel safe.

Michelle: and so we can just like get into what we feel is important. but I think that a lot of the time we're missing the nuance that makes us sparkly. and we're like, actually skipping over the most valuable thing. About us or like the most interesting points of connection in order to get to the thing we think is important, but actually like, perhaps isn't. or in the context of like, business and then I'll stop talking 'cause I've been going on forever. we cut off really important parts of ourselves to be more easily understood by other people because we can't justify, justify those interests that we have and roll them up into, well of course I'm interested in health, so I'm interested in this. Other element of health or travel. Because of this, we have to like, kind of make everything jigsaw together when maybe it doesn't. and I think that results in like a lack of satisfaction because we feel unable to explore the things that we're really into. and we're sort of performing or self surveilling our own interests. which not interested in. 

Tonya: Yeah, it's, it's really interesting, like, I think lots of things were coming up for me as you were saying that, well, what are the practical pieces of that? what is that inaction? Because for me, when I hear that, You know, know, it's like an exhale. It's a permission slip for specific types of people. 'cause on the same end of it, there might be some whose authentic expression is just like that clarity or like that's the path they're on and that really works for them. And then there's the other side of it where this might really resonate with somebody who's like, you know what? I do just want to study this anthill and become an expert. And I won't start there, but there's interests that, you know, kind of capture our attention in various ways. So for me it's kind of like, there's permission in that, in exploring these random little facets of the mind. But then also there's another side of me that's like, well, you know, what is that in practice? what have the benefits for that? What have you seen? How have you seen that work for a client, for example? 

Michelle: Yeah, it's a good question and I don't wanna push back necessarily. That isn't the right way to say it, but even let's say like, a super specific focus on something like an anthill, would wonder 'cause the party line, like the general conditioning that we get is that you have to pick something and become an expert in it, become known in it. You pick a career and that's what you work towards. Even if you're a millennial who jumps from company to company, you're not jumping from like accounting to marketing to. Cs, right? That's not the point. You're staying in biz dev path because eventually you're going to do this thing, and so I would just question, not that it couldn't be possible that someone has just one supreme interest, but I would question if that's totally true or if that's kind of the path that they've picked because that's what they've been told they're supposed to do and they like it. it's almost like, um, what is it called? compulsory heteronormativity, where we're raised basically with the idea that like, if you're a girl, you will fall in love with a boy. If you're a boy, you will fall in love with a, with a girl, versus you can fall in love with anyone. And what would it be like if we were raised with like, well, you just fall in love with who you fall in love with. There's no real label to it. would our love lives look different? maybe we would end up with the same person, but the path would sort of meander or take a different route.

Michelle: we just don't really know because that's not what we're raised with. Right. So that's something I'm curious about too, that unclear. we'll have to do some ethical experiments on children. but, I think there's like a lot of entry points to this. One thing that flagged to me when you were talking is it's so normal for us to figure out. to justify our interests to say, I really wanna take this class, or like, I'm curious about this thing. And then. Without even like consciously doing it be like, because it relates to my job in this way, it'll help me at my job, or I can monetize this or it will do this, that and the other thing, which will get me in the door to this thing which will help me at my job here. So, and I'm like kind of being facetious about it, but I think that's totally normal. That justification of Even like justifying why we might wear makeup or why we might choose the clothes that we choose or whatever. because oh, I wanna be taken more seriously by other people, not. Because I like it. I don't know. Just like it. So I think there's a lot of justifying that we do in general unconsciously to allow, to give ourselves permission to try new things and to try things that we're interested in. I think even. from that perspective, we limit ourselves. 'cause we're like, okay, I can't just, go to like a six week, horseback riding camp. 'cause I am 36 and I've never ridden horses and it doesn't make any sense. So we're like, What would be like that? Oh, maybe like a health retreat. Maybe. I had a retreat that has horses. Maybe, okay, I'm in wellness, so maybe it's like, I'm gonna go do this for research because I'm in the wellness space and there's horses there. And it's like, well, why don't you just go do the horse thing, Bella Hadid, like go do your thing, you know? But, we kind of unconsciously do this and we limit ourselves. And I think that sort of, maybe like extracts marrow from the interest. it makes it. it depletes it or something, it waters it down.

Michelle: so we don't really feel satisfied with these, other things that we do, or that we justify. And also I think there's often the justification of, I need to monetize this. So I take a hobby or an interest and I attack it, because I have to be good at it. And then I have to make an Instagram about it, and then I have to. Be able to justify how much time I'm spending on it and not at my regular job. So now it's my side business, and then three years later I fucking hate it because I have just run at it full steam. And the reason I have sort of missed the point of why I got into the thing, I've missed the forest for the trees. So. often when I'm working with people, things that come up where they're maybe burnt out at their job and it started as a passion and now it's something that they like dread. It's like Sunday scaries every day, and there's a lot to that. I could keep going, but don't wanna like be 

Tonya: I. 

Michelle: over here.

Tonya: I love that. I think there's a lot of conditioning that happens, 'cause when you were speaking, I thought of like, well, it's kind of just like being a child in some ways and maintaining and keeping parts of that frame of mind and freedom and flexibility. really close to us. 

Michelle: Yeah, that's a really good way to think about it, because when we're children children grow holistically. They learn holistically, right? So, of course there's scaffolded learning in curriculums at school where you learn one thing and then you learn the next thing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But also, we know that they gotta go do sports, so they learn teamwork and so they learn resilience and so they learn, discipline or some shit like that. And we should take them in nature 'cause nature is important and there's all these different, things, right? we allow them to try new things and we really often think of it as. I want them to find a hobby that feels like them, that helps them, maybe define their identity, find their identity, and that that helps them unite, you know, unleash a passion. But we don't do that for ourselves and. I think many of us who have a tendency towards multihyphenate nature are just like non-linear people. so the sort of linear, like, I do this and that feeds into this thing and that helps this other thing, which is sort of like the justifying path, doesn't really make sense because everything that's sort of in our, or. Contributes in some way tothe way we're doing everything else, like the way that you cook dinner is influenced in some minor way by like the podcast that you listen to earlier We can't even really predict how these things are gonna have impacts on each other. 

Tonya: Totally. I would love to, you know, you're one of the first people that I spoke with, it made intuitive sense when you said it, but you talk about, treating things project-based and leading a project-based life. So can you tell us more about that?

Michelle: yes, that's one of my favorite things to talk about. Wait, I'm so curious. how has it like felt? Because we talked how many weeks ago? Like probably six weeks ago, right? I feel like we were, yeah. cause it was like beginning of June. We both were out of our homes. My child came running in, in the middle of our call. how have you been thinking about that? Has that like changed your approach at all?

 Tonya: I mean, I. I think like when I read and speak with you, which I hope will only continue to happen. I think there's a lot of like just this exhale I just feel so comfortable around you and around people like you, and people like us because it's more of this sense of like, ah, okay, I'm just so fucking glad. This conversation is happening because it just feels like an exhale in a world that's just so, like the personal brand and it has to look this way. And I'm so guilty of going against my nature in some ways where I'm like, but why does it look like that for me? this makes no sense to an onlooker. Sometimes it doesn't even make sense to me. So I think that the whole project based thing was just this beautiful clicking of like, oh, This is just this really beautiful part of me that I can really embrace and, I wouldn't ever want to dim down the feeling of aliveness of a project when it's coming through. so it's felt really resonant and alive since that conversation. 

Michelle: yeah. I love that. I love to hear that. like you said so eloquently, there's a lot of freedom in sort of viewing your life as a series of projects, and Paul Graham has like an amazing essay on, projects. It's called A Project of One's Own, you know, he's like Mr. Vc. Mr. VC philosopher, and he is such a huge fan. He wrote that article a really long time ago yeah, you gotta have projects that are yours that are not just your work stuff. 'cause you have projects at work of course, but what about for you? What are you making for you? And how that's an experiment. And exploration and projects don't have to be ongoing. they can be. A weekend long project that you complete for yourself. And I think there's tons of benefits to beginning to consider how you can implement a more project based or like philosophy I guess, in your life. I find that when I'm asked to almost create a container. Silly word, but for an idea, it helps me get more specific with the idea and really drill down to like, oh, what do I wanna get out of that? Like right now, I have a project that I'm working on, kind, albeit very slowly. I'm writing a play. I'm not a playwright. I don't know what anything about it, but I just have always thought it would be so I love. One of my pastimes is reading plays, just reading the, transcript of them because it takes like an hour and a half. It's the best. And the writing is so good. Playwrights are so smart, and, um. I was like, I just, I wanna write a play. I think that sounds so fun. I would love to see what that's like. I don't wanna be a playwright professionally. I don't wanna go back to school and become a screenwriter, but I just think that would be fun to try. so that's my little project is to write this play and I'm writing it with my friend and, you know, it's slow going, but knowing that I don't have to, pivot my entire life to make that my thing. allows me to experiment with it. I might hate it, you know, maybe like, this is actually way harder than I thought. This is not satisfying to me. But then I can go back and almost like rapid prototype or quickly iterate on what was I motivated by? what was exciting about this To me, I really like writing dialogue or I really exploring these deeper themes. I really like the punchy structure of like, I gotta figure out this problem in an hour and a half. I don't have 600 pages of a novel to figure this world out. okay, well how else can I do that? what's another way to do that if I'm not gonna write it as a play? So I think projects force you to get really specific about what is it that you're trying to do here? And they also lend themselves to that rapid prototyping idea of like, well, what's the minimum viable product? What's the minimum viable project that we can do to just test and see if this is something that I'm interested in and see how it goes. And then if it goes well, or If I like it, I can ramp it up. I can make it even bigger or more exciting. and projects, in my opinion, are ongoing, you know, forever. They're short term. There may be like longer term four or five year projects, but there's also something really freeing to me in knowing that you don't have to do something forever. you can start a blog that you're gonna write for a year and decide when you start it, that you're just gonna write it for a year. You don't have to continue. and in a way I noticed that that gives me a lot of energy because I get very, I guess I'm like avoidant attached. I don't wanna be tied down to something. I don't wanna be boxed in or Handcuffed to something forever. I want an exit strategy, if possible, if I'm not having a good time. so I feel like projects can do that? they give you, they help you scratch an itch and, ultimately I guess like, I'm trying to think of what someone Who would have objections about this lifestyle would say, and maybe they would say something like, well, you're just like flitting from thing to thing to thing to thing. Not necessarily, you can have a project that takes up 60% of your time or 70% of your time, like your business, right? Like I have a business called Holistic. It takes up a lot of my time. and I've been doing it for eight years. I wouldn't say that I'm inconsistent, but I have these other projects that, I do for three months or that I do for two years, or that I do for a weekend. And they really also help me. stay focused on what I'm supposed to do at Holistic. 'cause I used to find that I would get interested and excited about something and I'd be like, how can I roll this up into what I already do? And that would not be right. I would end up compromising, be like, I wanna write a book. I'd be like, what can I write about that has something to do with holistic? And I didn't really wanna write that book, it just wasn't right. So, it almost like. Maintains the purity of the intention of the project in front of you. Does that make sense? Tonya: Totally makes sense. I mean, it's also a beautiful metaphor for the impermanence of life and of any relationship and of letting something run its course. and then it's also, Just following the flow of vital energy, 'cause where do all the best ideas come from? where do the things we start come from? It's a passion of some kind. And I think about that. how unfortunate it would be, and this kind of leads to idea that you speak of around. what is it? Desire, hoarding we have to talk about that too, because then it's like, well there really are endless ideas and I love how you talk about this concept because when you're an open person, this is my experience of it anyways, like being so open and you can see all of these potentials in the quantum field where you're like. Oh my God. And that reality exists and I see that for me, and I see that for us and all of these things, and then you just end up collecting all of these things. how do you know the right ones that you're gonna action? 

Michelle: Hmm. Well, I can't say that I do, you know, I can't, can't say that I do with like a hundred percent, you know, certainty. I think when you know yourself or you're keeping tabs on yourself 'cause we're always changing. and you know what your values are. And you know, the kind of Life you wanna be having, you know what is important to you in this season of your life, then that makes it easier to make decisions and to be like kind of, I call it ruthless clarity. To have ruthless clarity about what you want and what you don't want I think the cool thing about having a project based just perspective is you can have ideas for projects and not touch them for years and know that, I say this to myself a lot, everything I've ever loved will come back to me. if it really, like you said earlier, what's meant for us will won't pass us by, if I'm really passionate about a project and an idea, sometimes I gotta let it brew 'cause it's just not ready to come through yet. It's like I'm creatively constipated or something, and. there's this saying in alchemy that I say this, anyone who's ever listened to me talk is gonna be like, shut the hell up. But I say this all the time. One door opens the next, or it's sometimes, quoted as one book opens the next. And the idea being that you can't get to the next step until you walk through this door. And so sometimes I found that. Projects that they've sort of like poked their head up out of the unconscious. They're like, Hey, they're not totally formed yet. They're little embryos. they need time. I have to go experience other stuff. Maybe there's another project that I need to go do and learn something on, and then I've got that juice, I fucked up some stuff over there. And now maybe this more delicate thing, or maybe even more important perhaps thing is ready to be born. It's ready to come through because I'm ready for it. And so that's another thing I think about a lot too, I gotta be ready, I gotta go do shit. 'cause I gotta learn and practice and like. Assess, what am I doing Well, Where did I kind of blow it and what could I do differently next time? Or even like, what skills am I trying to acquire right now and why? why is that important to me? it's almost like building your own life syllabus maybe, where you're like, what do I wanna learn? how can I design a project around that? Or even, oh, how can I sort of right side. this project by, instead of saying, here are my goals of like, I wanna be on the Forbes 30 under 30 list. Instead say, here's the skill that I wanna master through this experience and this will be my laboratory for trying that thing and, learning something from it. does that answer your question? I feel like I went off a bit there. Tonya: Totally. I don't even remember what my question was in this exact moment, but I love that. and it does, I mean, yeah, around the project based, way of living. 

Michelle: Oh, you asked how do you choose? Yeah. How do you know what's right versus not, right? I think you don't really have to worry about that. I don't think you need to worry about it. if you're checking in, like what? There's something, in the theory of goal setting called reassessment, that most people don't. Do when they're setting goals, they set a goal and then they're like, okay, I'm gonna aim towards that for the next five years. And then they achieve their goal and they're like, why am I sad? And it's because we are not reassessing on the journey. And that reassessment is confronting because often you'll be working towards something and you'll have a sit down with yourself and you need to call yourself in and be like, I actually don't want this. my goals have changed. And that doesn't mean you need to completely abandon the path that you're on. It just means that you gotta steer your ship in a different direction, slightly different direction. It's better to do it early than it is to do it, when you have to change it five degrees versus 180 degrees five years down the road, So I think if you're doing that, you can't make a wrong choice. 'cause you're always gonna learn something. Tonya: Mm-hmm. How do you balance like the piece around ruthless clarity with being a little un being a little unfi outable and the mystery, 'cause those are kind of contradictory in some ways. 

Michelle: think? Tonya: Well, okay, so I guess how I'm sitting with this in this moment is like, ruthless clarity. feels clear, whereas the mysterious component feels a little bit more chaotic and less like, well, you can't pin me down

Michelle: Interesting.

Tonya: for me, it feels contradictory. 

Michelle: Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's totally a valid perspective, I guess with ruthless clarity. I think about the people I love and the people I work with sometimes who really feel pain over decision making, where they're like, is this right or is this right? Who are asking that question? Is this gonna be the wrong choice? And I think when you know yourself and you trust yourself that you've got your own back and you're gonna figure it out, you're gonna land on your feet. Even if you make a mistake, you'll figure out how to reverse course. and nothing is wasted. No experience is wasted. It gives you some confidence to have ruthless clarity and make choices, not irrationally or like, hastily, but to sort of like clearly define what your values are. what am I trying to do right now? What's the number one priority to me or top three priorities in my life right now? Does this decision measure up to those things? is it in alignment with that? Yes or no? It's pretty simple. I think there's, just going back to the desire hoarding, idea, like people who are desire hoarding, I think do not have that ruthless clarity. They're like, well, I could live this kind of life, or I could live this kind of life, or I could do this, or maybe I'll do that. Well, if I do this, then I can't do that. but I don't really know what I wanna do, so I'll just not move on either of them. And then you wake up 10 years later and you haven't done anything that you're excited about. or honestly, not even that you're not any more clear. Because in order to get clear, you have to go try things. You need to go get data. And if you don't put yourself in the position to maybe get disappointed or be wrong or make a mistake, then you don't have, you're not echo locating yourself in space. You're just sitting and I guess you can continue to think about it. but in my experience, there's only so much thinking one can do. There's like the bell curve of when thinking is valuable, right? it's only valuable to a certain point. And then eventually you just have to go and you need to try stuff and you need to fuck up. and iterate, you know, and assess, right? Make a mistake. Assess, okay, what would I do differently? What did I not like about that? Where do I wanna go next? and then move on. But with the mystery thing, I think part of my mystery value is, Embracing the mystery. there's some questions that I ask myself to be like, am I holding this as a value? am I embracing the mystery? I love to pretend that I know everything. I love that. I don't know everything and I need to constantly be reminded of that, even as I thirst for knowledge and, it's so relaxing to me to know that I don't know what's supposed to happen. or what's going to happen, especially when things are scary. Like my husband has brain cancer and he was diagnosed eight years ago. He had a recurrence last year when our son was one. And, it's a pretty intense form of brain cancer as most are. And. sometimes am like, girl, what the fuck? Like, why did you, I met him after he got sick. I'm like, girl, why'd you do that? My college roommate's mom told me once, it's just as easy to fall in love with a rich man as it is to fall in love with a poor man. And sometimes I'm like, she would tell me it's just as easy to fall in love with a guy who has brain cancer as a guy who doesn't have brain cancer. but I fell in love with a guy who had brain cancer and decided to start a family, with him. And sometimes I'm like, holy shit, what's gonna happen? what's gonna happen to me? What's gonna happen to us? What's gonna happen to our son? And then I'm just reminded that I can't predict it. Thank God. it's none of my business. Tonya: Mm-hmm. 

Michelle: I just have to try and like live as well as I can and be as focused on my priorities and values as I can be. And that means, you know, holding them up to the light and being like, is that still it? And then changing when it feels necessary. again, easier said than done. It's not always the easiest thing to do. but The mystery is like. You just don't know. And like, oh my God, the universe is so much smarter than me. it's so much more creative than I am. I never thought I would be going to my dream school to get my PhD to become a doctor at 36. If you told me that, I would've been like, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's rain. what are you talking about?

Michelle: I can never could've planned that. and thank God I didn't 'cause I wouldn't have gotten here, part of my mystery as a value is to remind myself that I'm just a knucklehead, kind of like dancing through life. and also, keep a little bit to myself. to let it cook, to let it brew, and allow me the grace to change my mind about some things. and then my final mystery pieces, I just don't wanna be replicated by ai. so, and I have so much content on the internet, and many think pieces, lots of things that. Talk about my philosophy. and so that was plaguing me a couple years ago and I was like, how do I make sure that there isn't a chat, GPT Michelle Peon, that replaces me, that's so scary. And the way that I've kind of come up with it is like I just need to be, unidentifiable. I need to Constantly shift and change and, perhaps do the thing that's surprising, from the outside to people who are trying to figure me out in a linear way. But if you look back at my values, then it's not maybe surprising. Then I think the way to keep it unidentifiable to ai un algorithmic is, um, to have a, a breadth of experiences, a breadth of surprising experiences, that introduce new variables to you that are in person and not just on the internet that are trackable. Now I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but um, Tonya: I love it. 

Michelle: yeah, Does that make sense? Tonya: It does. I mean, I just really appreciate your perspective and I love the idea of just thank God we don't know certain things because what would that look like? just like imagining the world we would live in if people made decisions because They knew what would happen and the experiences we would miss out on the lack of soul evolution. it would be wild. 

Michelle: Yeah, I was just reading this really good article on Substack about the compression of knowledge and how it's making us dumber and less interesting and how, AI and kind of just how content is, the, summarization of a perhaps more nuanced topic, like five bullet points you need to know about whatever. manmade famine, there's a lot more there, there. And. Compressing things down in order to be, fake mastery or something, or to get to the end of, I wanna know this information. So like, let me just like almost, take the most standard path to, or take the most standard experience to get to the thing. it's like changing the way our brains work in a negative way. and I think same thing with Like. if you try to compress your experience to be like, I'm going to this outcome and I, the thing that I wanted when I was 18 and that's the life I'm gonna live, what I thought my best life would be when I was 18 years old. It's like, I don't know, man. There's more out there. Tonya: I mean, there's like full brain atrophy that's happening when we are too reliant on thinking for ourselves. It's funny, I've definitely used AI to, summarize an article, if I'm pressed on time, but then. When I read the article, I will make, I'll make notes, and I'm like, why? And then if you like, go back and read the article again, you're like, why did I highlight this one sentence? And thankfully make a note about where that made my brain go. Because that's strategy, that's actual thinking where you're like, I need to circle this because. based on today, and I don't know, whatever random things are in my consciousness today, my brain is rabbit hole me to connect these two dots right here in this part. And then when you talk about that, when you actually string apart or, combine your own original thoughts with this little piece of a, you know, however many word article like that is, so unreplicable. 

Michelle: Exactly. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. That's like, that's how we beat AI is we annotate what we read, which is connecting past experiences, questions that we have, things that we wanna research more. What seems I don't know, non sequitur. and relating to ideas that feel like they shouldn't be on the same plane, but in some way through your experience, they are connected. That's how we beat ai. That's how you establish yourself as someone who, you know, that's how we go head and shoulders above everyone who's kind of putting out ai slap and I, I like AI for certain uses. I think it's really, it's really important. And I worry for some of us about how we're using it and what it's capturing about us. what, it's farming about our perspectives and these are private companies that are using this information. We need to be. Conscientious, I guess not trying to be fearmonger, but we need to kind of know there could be some negative, there could be some negative outcomes. but yeah, to your point about like annotating, I think that's what learning and that's what's satisfying in my experience. Tonya: How do you use ai? 

Michelle: Oh, good question. In a lot of different ways. I right now really like Claude. That's my AI weapon of choice I suppose. I've got it connected to my Gmail and my notion, and I try to use it to help me move more quickly through my day. Obviously that's what everyone's using at four PEs on. But for example, I have a 2-year-old so I split the childcare with my husband. So we are both on kind of like half-ish days at work. And so sometimes I'll be like walking with my kid to the park and I'll open up Claude and I'll be like, okay, Claude, can you just, um, pull up all my messages in my inbox that are new. That I need to reply to today and just summarize them in one word or in one sentence. Like what the question is or like what the thing is that I need to get back to this person with. So it'll go through and it'll read those things for me and then I can record into it and be like, okay, this is gonna be the response for so and so person. Just like, can you, format it for me? And then when I sit down to my desk, I can just copy and paste that stuff and send off the email. 'cause Claude won't send the email for me. Um. How else do I like? That's like the primary way that I really use it the most. I use chat GPT to help me. Like I've used it like Google. I don't find that it's good at the other stuff. it doesn't have the same connections, but I was looking for a film camera and I was like, what are five cool film cameras that, you know, I've got this type of film in my refrigerator. Like what would be another thing to add to my film camera collection? and it was a good jumping off point for the rest of my research, but I ended up on a bunch of photography websites anyways, kind of like. Comparing things. I really like perplexity AI for research. 'cause I can say like, who is the philosopher that thought X, y, Z thing? And it'll be like, are you talking about Heider? You idiot? like the most famous philosopher. and I'm like, yeah, I am dumb. tell me more about that. And it'll link out to those like specific places where I can learn more about that thing. So I really like perplexity for that reason. and I found Claude is kind of similar. I can say like, oh, what was this movie that had so and so person in it? And like, what are some of the themes? But And then I use chat, GPT. I started this by being like, I don't use it that much. I use it a lot. I use chat GPT to create specific GPTs. So like I have an S-O-P-G-P-T, so when I have a new task I'll. Make an SOP for it to make it easier for me to do when I do it later or when I delegate it to someone else. So it just kind of, I built that GPT with my own framework for how to write an so P. So I gave it instructions and it just makes it easier for me to basically templatize that work. So I have one for project planning, I have one for SOPs, and then I also like to make diagnostics for my students. on chat GBT. So I have like a burnout diagnostic. I have a jealousy map diagnostic that helps you kind of have some self-inquiry around what is it that I'm jealous about here? You could do it on your own. You don't need AI to do it for you, but sometimes it's nice to not have to, lead your own reflection, to kind of like sit back. and then it will kind of tell you what your score is or maybe some other things to think about. but I honestly could probably, if you got rid of chat GPT tomorrow, I think I'd be okay. and then the other way I use AI is I use script and that helps me edit my podcast episodes, the AI there. So that's really easy. But we sometimes forget that AI is not just like LLMs and you know, generative ai. There's a lot of AI that we've been using. Grammarly is ai, so we've been using AI for a really long time. and I think it has its place. Tonya: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Michelle: AI right now in your life? Tonya: yes, I am, I haven't really explored Claude, but now I'm intrigued to, I mean, honestly, sometimes it's just like a collaborator. A lot of the time it's a collaborator. I have various, I haven't used, I haven't like developed my own GPTs I suppose. that's intriguing and I don't have it connected to my email, but I will. I find it's like a mirror and a friend. So I'm just really honest with it. If I am just brain dumping and I'm like, amazing, turn this into a structured email for me. Or hey, I need to negotiate and what's the best way to do that in a really neutral way or this is really emotionally charged. I honestly do use it for Processing Sometimes, I've used it in moments where I'm like, just feeling like, I just wanna talk to somebody. And not to say that it's not reaffirming my own biases, I'm sure it is in some ways, we use it for like. it's making just internally at Rainbo, some things just faster. So much faster. Like I have an idea and it's just expediting that process. Um. 

Michelle: Mm-hmm. Tonya: Research, I'm using chat like Google definitely a lot of the time I haven't gotten into the flow of like actually talking to it and having conversations. I have some friends that are doing that. astrocartography personal life. I think it's a wonderful tool. and it's also not to say that I'm also not like. not noticing where I need to pull the reins back and be like, no, no. You need to think on that by yourself.

 Michelle: yeah, that's a really good point. I think someone told me you should use AI for the things that you've already mastered, but if you are still learning how to do something or finding your way through something, you should not delegate it to ai. And I think that's a good general rule of thumb of like right. If I know how to do this really well, 'cause you're gonna have to fact check it. if you're asking AI to write you an outline of something that you are not super familiar with, There's a lot that's going to potentially be missing. so you don't know what you don't know, and then you gotta go back and fact check it and just make sure every line is right. But I used to use chat GPT quite a bit to help me with cooking 'cause I like to host dinner parties, but I also have anxiety. So, how can I make sure everything's on the table at the right time? What do I need to get, what should I make sure how many, how much food should I get? I should get enough food, but not too much food. I don't really know why I keep doing it, but I do. and I just hosted a party for 15 people or my husband's work last week and I was trying to feed what I normally do into chat GBT and be like, okay, so here are the recipes. Let's come up with a grocery list. And it kept. Coming back with errors, pretty big errors, missing entire sections, missing entire dishes, miscalculating things. And if I hadn't been so obsessive with what was on the menu, I wouldn't have really noticed it until I was probably sitting down to cook and eventually, I was just like, oh my God, the time that I've spent correcting this AI to make my grocery list. I could have just written the fucking grocery list myself at this point. So I was like, maybe this is the end of my chat g BT relationship. Maybe I'm done with this for this tool for now. but yeah, I don't know. 

Tonya: So much fact checking my chat. Thought I was a Leo so I was like, excuse me, I gave you all my info. 

Michelle: Yeah. Right. Yeah, I've definitely heard with like astrology stuff, that it can be wrong and, you're like, that's not right. And it's like, oh wait, you're right. my bad. Totally missed it. That's kind of a big mistake to make. it's interesting. 

Tonya: I love sharing. Wow. I love this. I've never chatted about this on a podcast before. I think it's actually really valuable. I have yet to have AI conversations and I think I'd like to have more of them with the potential of AI to develop intuition and more. I don't know if I wanna say a sense of self, but just that different emotional processing, capabilities. I guess there's just so much unknown, but what else are you doing to kind of maintain that level of like, I don't wanna be replicable.

Michelle: I think that it kind of forces me maybe AI is the. The villain. we all need to have a villain that we spite, motivated by spite. but also just surprising myself. I wanna continue surprising myself. I wanna look back on, let's say in 10 years and be like, oh my God, she had no idea what was coming next in that she was gonna do next. That's kind of like the life that I want to have and rack up experiences with. And so I think to answer your question about becoming unidentifiable by ai, maybe it's just I wanna be, I wanna keep surprising myself too. I wanna keep, deepening myself knowledge by putting myself in different scenarios and situations and seeing how things work, how it goes. I guess that's a through line. Is pushing my own seeing my own boundary, or defining myself, defining my edges, by experience. And I used to be a marathon runner, and then I started running ultra marathons. And because I was just like, I wonder how far I can run. Like, I don't know what would ha like, what's it, and then I was like, oh, this is how far, I don't wanna do this anymore. this is not interesting to me anymore. I don't really need to know what the physical boundary is, um, of, of how. Long I can run. It, it's like, it's none of my business. it's not interesting. The details aren't interesting to me anymore. so I guess that's maybe more my motivation and maybe how I'm approaching it of like what would be, how can I surprise myself? and have some pleasure in it too. not just like challenge myself, because. Yeah, I'm kind of like done with that part of my life of like just doing challenges to prove that I'm tough or something to myself. I'm good. 

Tonya: I could keep going and going and, I'm so grateful for this conversation and for you. where can we find you 

Michelle: Yeah, I know, it's a good question. I'm in la if you guys are around East 

Tonya: I'm in la 

Michelle: Wait, remind me where, what neighborhood 

Tonya: I am in Topanga. 

Michelle: Oh yeah. Okay. So we're on opposite sides of the world because I'm over by like Mount Washington, Highland Park. but you know, we're still in the same, exactly. Um, yeah, and you can find me at Holistic, that's my most consistent thing. Where I'm posting regularly and where I do like the most teaching, with things like intuitive business. But I think mostly what we do at Totalism is help intuitive and creatively minded people live and create fulfilling work. whether that's their vocation, or their business or projects that they take on that maybe they don't get paid to do, but that they're excited about. So. I do that, in the North Node, which is our members community. I have an email that I send every week on Substack and a podcast that goes along with it called The 12th House. And then I'm just floating around. You can see all my projects that I'm working on that are not secret private projects, on my website, michelle peon.com. And yeah, so you can just keep up to date and all those different places. And then I have a bunch of projects. I'm basically like four substack in a trench coat. I post on at different times. They all have their sort of different project based methodology behind them. So, you can just kind of. Follow along, opt into what you're interested and leave what you're not interested behind. No biggie. 

Tonya: Well, I love to ask guests to close this out with one wish intention, prayer message that you'd like to leave with any listeners. 

Michelle: Ooh, I have more than one wish, but. I just wish for a more humane world. I think that's my operating thesis. How can we live and create a more humane world where we're humane to ourselves and more humane with each other? and that's what I'm trying to figure out. And pretty much everything I do, so I wish for a more humane world. 

Tonya: I love that I share that prayer and wish. Thank you so much for your time and I just love this conversation so much. So. Oh, Michelle: Thank you. It was so fun. Thanks for having me.

 

Keywords:

project-based living, feminine creativity, ambition and authenticity, mystery and self-discovery, holisticism, creative evolution, holistic entrepreneurship, AI and creativity, desire hoarding, living intentionally