How to Cry: MJ Renshaw on Emotions, Grief, and the Body’s Wisdom
EP 49

How to Cry: MJ Renshaw on Emotions, Grief, and the Body’s Wisdom

Show Notes: 

In this deeply moving episode, Tonya reconnects with returning guest and somatic guide MJ Renshaw for a heart-expanding conversation on emotions, grief, creativity, and the sacred art of crying. MJ shares the inspiration behind her new book, How to Cry, offering personal stories and research-backed insight into how emotional release opens the door to healing, intimacy, and freedom. Together, they explore how trauma lives in the body, the role of generational patterns, and why allowing ourselves to feel the full spectrum of emotions—rage, guilt, jealousy, grief—can transform our lives from the inside out.

 

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or on your favorite podcast platform. 

 

Topics Covered:

  • MJ’s journey writing How to Cry and redefining emotional expression
  • The physiology and potency of different types of tears
  • Crying as a sacred, somatic, and even spiritual practice
  • How trauma is stored in the body across generations
  • Why emotional suppression impacts physical health and relationships
  • Parenting with emotional intelligence and reparenting your inner world

Guest Info:

Connect with Tonya:

 

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Show Transcript:

Tonya: Hi. I'm so happy. I think you're the very first guest I've ever had on as a repeat, and you're such a dear friend. There's so much we always have to discuss. There's so many nooks and crannies and weird corners and corridors to go down together.

MJ: And And you're saying nooks and crannies and corridors? I'm like, our butts. Our butts. You're talking about our butt.

Tonya: Yes. That's what I'm talking about. And I'm just so I'm so happy to have you here, so thank you.

MJ: Thanks for having me. I feel honored.

Tonya: What are you grateful for today?

MJ: Puppies and children. I had a, like, a family I didn't nap, but I had a baby asleep on me and then a puppy asleep on that baby and then another kid beside me. And, yeah, just doesn't really get better than that.

Tonya: No. I have such a visual of that, and it's so fuzzy. That's so it's funny because I actually just saw your the story that you post had posted of the dog on the bed and Bowie, and I was like, I only registered Bowie. Like, I saw it, like, I I yeah. I don't I don't even know how. But

MJ: It's funny that you say that because I had no plans of getting a dog, but was shopping for dogs in my spare time as you do.

Tonya: As you do.

MJ: I do. Everybody does. Like, you go on Petfinder and you're, like, chummy dogs. And, this this dog, I saw the picture, and it made me cry. And then I was saying to Ian, like, I think he's, like we our souls have been entwined for a very long time. Like, I know this dog, and he did not want a dog. So we had to have that conversation of me being like so, like, my soul needs this dog and, you know, the that back and forth for a while. But, we have a dog now. And Wow. It was just still have

Tonya: sorry to interrupt you. You still have your old dog?

MJ: No. Oh, I'm sorry. He's alive. No. No. No. It's a happy it's like a sad happy story. He was a rescue. We had him for five years. And then as soon as we had toddlers, he was not down.

Tonya: Yes. Okay. I do remember.

MJ: There was fighting. He lost his hair. Like, it was just not

Tonya: Oh, okay.

MJ: So we had to rehome him. For everybody listening, we tried. We tried every don't hate me. We tried everything. We had trainers coming in, but the advice that we were given is that once you have a dog that has a certain amount of trauma and he was raised on the street, he was attacked a bunch as a as a puppy, He just had certain protective instincts that you weren't gonna train out of him. So we had a choice. We could basically keep him in his crate for the rest of his life or rehome him, and he is with, like, the most amazing person ever. Mhmm. So loved. He's got a happy, happy home, and it it's like, it hurts to talk about still because that was our baby, and, like, I never imagined that being the situation. I never imagined me being the person to rehome a dog. Mhmm. But when it comes down to it, you have to think about, you know, the well-being and safety of everybody and Totally. Yeah.

Tonya: It just Okay. Wow. Wow. But Teddy Teddy's newest member.

MJ: Yes.

Tonya: I'm I've been really convincing Simon to get a dog. I think it's just gonna I'm just gonna surprise. I think that's just gotta be the way.

MJ: Yeah. I mean, no one's gonna be like, no, puppy. No.

Tonya: That's not it. It's not the right time. But, well, thanks for sharing that. I'm gonna share a quick thing I'm grateful for today, which is I think also I was just at the farmer's market and just looking at all of the adorable children, and, that just made me really happy raising, shifting eyebrows. Yeah. Yeah. Baby fever is has descended upon me, And that it was just really sweet. I just it's, like, such a joy to see to see them. And so, yeah, you inspire me in that way endlessly, and I we have, like, so many things to talk about. I always love talking about motherhood with you, and, you have a new book that's coming out that I'm so excited to dive into today. And I planted some seeds that we might have a cry on this episode. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm I'm due for one. So how how has this all been unfolding? How, you know, how is the book writing process? Tell us about it. Yeah. It is

MJ: divine, and I feel like it's like anything in life. Like, it is really a birth. So Definitely. You're you know, you you go in with this plan, and then very quickly you realize that that plan is going through the shutter, and you have to just surrender to the unfolding of it all. And I think the thing about a creative project, which I kept returning to over and over and over again, is that this is not the last creative project you're going to do in your life. So, you know, I kept wanting to be like, it has to be amazing. It has to be the best. It has to be an Everything. Company, everything in the world. It doesn't. It can just be, like, you know, a little thing. Some of the best books I've ever written are just such a niche little piece of advice. Like Mhmm. You know, don't have a glass ceiling on your own success or, you know, such a such a little thing, and they've turned it into this beautiful book. And it's not everything to that author, and it's not everything in that author's life, and it's not everything in the world. And, I just kept returning to that. Just being like, just just don't take it so seriously. Put out what is true for you now. Mhmm. And if it changes, write another book. And, yeah, I think that's good advice just on anything that I've learned is just this is not the the last time we can keep doing different iterations and growing and yeah.

Tonya: Totally. That reminds me of, like, an like, almost like a bit of analysis paralysis or where you just hold yourself back and procrastinate the thing because you either want it to be perfect or you turn it into this really big thing when really it can be so specific and for a moment in time. And the fact of just, like, continual releasing of a creative project or the continual, like, sharing of work is, in some ways, just it's so freeing because then you can get to the next thing because the your one project's never going to encompass it all.

MJ: Yeah. Your life is the the actual project, and all these little things are just fun. Like, they're just fun, really, like, having any creative project or even work. I think any work is meant to be just a fun thing. Like, I'm gonna try this and see. And Mhmm. If it doesn't work, that's okay. And if it does work, that's okay. And if I don't like it, that's also okay. Like, it's just just trying different things.

Tonya: How did how did the tell us the name of the book, and, like, how did it become about crying and emotions?

MJ: It it I it was not planned. That was not a plan. It just kinda came as I was writing. You know how if anybody was in university, you don't write the intro to your, you know, paper until you finish it. And then you go back and write it because you're like, wow. So many other things came back came out there. But oh, four four 4PM where I am. So the book is called How to Cry, and it's about somatic really releasing your emotions to find freedom. So this has been, like, obvious such a big part of my own story has been getting into my body, out of my brain, like, out of my head. Stop thinking about it. Stop reading about it. Stop talking about it and analyzing it and just, like, freaking feel it. Feel what's going on. What are the emotions that are inside of you? And it's been so invaluable because I think with that mindset of just getting into the body, it's been helpful for anyone with generational trauma. Because a lot of the times, we don't know what it is Mhmm. That we're feeling because it's we're feeling something for someone else. And that's really helpful because you you might never know or understand. So I think that's, like, a really cool process to think about just when we're releasing our, for lack of a better term, shit in our lives. Like, it doesn't have to make sense. You can just drop into your body and just let whatever it is move through you, and you don't have to have a story or know where it came from in your childhood or, have even have a name for it. Although, I think the research shows us that if we do name our emotions, it does make them, more palatable. But it it's it's just, the research that came through when I started to look at, you know, what is it that I was doing on my own healing journey. I was just releasing my emotions and using breath work to do that. That's the tool that's been really helpful for me, but there's many, many tools that have helped people throughout history. Right? Like, psychedelic plant medicine, just, like, anything anything that can help you kinda drop into a space of having an experience where you're in tune and embodied. And the thing that was so fascinating to me with this research was things like our mitochondria can hold on to trauma for 50 generations. Wow. That's medieval times.

Tonya: Mhmm.

MJ: That's what you can tell them. Like, it's just it's unbelievable. And then to think that we're carrying that, you know, along with a lot of generational healing Mhmm. But but the healing world is just so much more vast than we are capable of thinking about it with the conscious mind. Mhmm. So that the book kinda goes into a lot of the amazing research. Yeah. Like Ellen Langer's work who she's done a lot of really amazing studies on longevity of just I don't wanna say, like, the quantumness of it, but the fact that, you know, one of her studies is they take, women who clean hotels and they tell half of them you do enough energy cleaning these hotels, so that you were by our calculation you should, you know, lose this much weight or this is how much you're expending more than you're eating and then they didn't tell that to the other half of them. They just let them go about their same jobs. And the half that was walking around thinking that they were working so hard spending all the energy, they actually ended up losing weight and lowering their blood pressure and, you know, their heart rate became different. All these different physiological changes because of the way they were thinking about what they were doing. And then on the other side, the other half, there was no changes. So there's this, So wild. There's something there's something there beyond what we can even conceive of of just, like, the way our minds and the way our bodies work together. And then the book just kind of explores that. I mean, there's no there's definitely no, like, argument in the book, but it's a it's a tail a tail woven of my personal story of just how my life has transformed so much with focusing on, you know, healing what's in my body and then, all the really cool science research that I've picked up along the way that's kind of tried I've put together to try to make sense of what what is this? What why is it that when I go deeper into my grief, I find freedom and more love there? Mhmm. There's so much love inside of grief.

Tonya: There is so much, and it's it's like I feel like tears are a moment of grace. Like, when you have that especially, I I mean, there's so many probably type I I don't even know that this is true, but I think it is. But there are so many types of tears and ways of crying. And so it's like there's the ones that are but no matter what kind it is, it opens the portal of the heart. You know? It's like the expression of things that cannot be said in some ways, and they're they're like, yeah, just sacred. And there's so many amazing esoteric traditions that also honor them. I was try I've been trying to save my tears. So, like, actually save that salt water. And you can use that in you can use it on altars, and it's apparently water that is, like, imbued with a potency of, like, hormones and serotonin, and and you can put it on your like, you can use it as as this, like, altar piece. And I haven't really been able to capture them, but I love the idea of saving salt, these, like, tears, these these waters of transformation. And the it's like it's like divine grace. You know?

MJ: It really it really is. Our and you're absolutely right. There are different types of tears. Right? Like, we have the type where if you stub your toe and you cry out of pain, those tears are gonna help release endorphins so that you feel less pain in your body. And then we have the type where we're having emotional pain, and that's going to produce oxytocin. And the it's it's our bodies are just so elegantly designed by God because those ones even have more proteins in them so that they will roll heavily down your cheek. Like, you'll notice the consistency of the tears will change and that's so that other people will witness them. Right? You've created this oxytocin because you've signaled I need somebody right now. I need somebody. And and and that's so important to have those messages. Because if you think about a lot of the ways that people are raised, what are the messaging that you were told when you were a kid and you cried? You know, for me, it was don't be so dramatic. Go to your room. What are you crying about? Just very, you know, people who also were raised in a way where they were not comfortable with emotions. Like Mhmm. We have, lineages of people who I don't wanna I I don't mean this in the rudest way. I just mean it in the definition emotionally unintelligent. Mhmm. Right? A lack of comfort with being with someone's emotions, their full breadth of emotions. And that that is in that in that ability to be okay with yourself and your own emotions and also be okay with someone else's emotions, I think there is a alchemy, a magic, a sense of true intimacy and community that can be created in those moments that can absolutely heal things that we didn't even know were capable of healing with something like that. And I I you know, in in in the book, I go into looking at, like, the male loneliness epidemic or the fact that almost every top killer in The United States from accidents, which a lot of them are counted as overdoses, to heart diseases, cancer, for for whatever reason, a lot of them are escaping me right now, but, you know, the top things that people die of, a lot of those can be with the research looked at as being caused by emotional suppression.

Tonya: Wow.

MJ: Autoimmune diseases. Like, it's it's it's and I'm not saying that everybody's dying from emotional suppression, but I am saying that we would be a heck of a lot healthier if we weren't so suppressed emotionally. Mhmm. And, oh, the suicide rates. That's that's the other one I was skipping. Like, seventy five percent of them are men. What's the difference? One of the main differences, the gender differences between men or women and how the programming that they get around emotions.

Tonya: Oh, yeah.

MJ: Don't be weak. Mhmm. Boys don't cry. You know? When someone doesn't cry, when someone holds in a cry, you increase the cortisol in your body. That feeling that your whole life, you're gonna get sick.

Tonya: Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, though. There's so many layers of emotions too. I feel like actually, it's probably so dynamic for an individual, but there's it feels like sometimes when you're when you're so suppressed, there's so many layers of emotions that you're not accessing. And so the tears, you might not have cried for x amount of years because there's layers and layers of things in between and walls. And do you know what I mean? So it's like

MJ: Absolutely. How do you Yeah. I think it's cultural. It's personal. People have the stories and the beliefs about emotions and what they are, quote, unquote, allowed to feel or not allowed to feel. One of my revolutions is that I think everybody should just own up to jealousy. Like, when someone says they never get jealous, I'm always, like, side eye, like, liar. Yeah. Yeah. You do, and you should. Yeah. If you have a precious life, you should. I think, yeah, I think it is like an onion. Like, you just have to peel it back. Work with pick an emotion that seems easy to come to reckoning with and meditate on it. Think about it. Where does it show up in your life? How does it control you? How does your, you know, holding in that emotion and stopping yourself from feeling it, where does it control you? You know, a big one is anger and rage. A lot of people are like, that's not high vibe. Right? That's absolutely high vibe. Rage is so sacred. Like, it's one of the best things in life. Like, we've had the best cultural movements have been from rage, like the civil rights movement. Right? There has some of the best people on the world who have changed the world for so much love have been fueled by rage, started as rage because it signals that something needs to change. Mhmm. And I, yeah, I would say, like, if you pick an emotion and you meditate with it and you sit with it, you'll it'll move through you. Mhmm. And then you'll find a new one.

Tonya: I do that.

MJ: Is it's not you know, I loved you we love Joe Dispenza, and I love how he says emotions are energy in motion. Like, they're not you. Mhmm. They're just, you know, a part of all of these different fractals of not use. Mhmm. You know, we have all these stories and limiting beliefs and fears and traumas, and the emotions are gonna come with all those things, but none of them are the truth. Like, the truth is that we are just joyous love.

Tonya: Mhmm. Mhmm.

MJ: And you can just let it flow through you.

Tonya: Yeah. I think the I think it's I think it's, like, also being a having a meditation practice where you can, like, settle into into the awareness of watching things pass by. I think sometimes these really big emotions are so scary because we think it means it's who we are, And there's such an identification, and there's such a belief that this is, who I am in in a way, and and that's really scary. And, like and we we suppress that. For me, I was I I was wanting to get more in touch with my kind of lower lower chakra, energy centers. And so I spent a good amount of time working with guilt and shame because I was just having a hard time connecting to them. Like, what does that really mean to me? How does it really show up for me? And I spent about a month every day writing about guilt and shame and then meditating on it and ended up having this, like, overwhelming emotional release of, like, again, one of these moments of grace that just descended upon me as I tuned in with my mom and just had this, like, next level next level release of our guilt and shame for, like, the family and just, like, I you know, it's like those moments that are totally have you can't put words to them. They're so sacred. And it was this, like, deep understanding of who she was and deep understanding of, like, her story and what she's been through that was, like, getting activated and probably some DNA shifts, right, like, happening in my body. But I find the yeah. Like, just journaling about things is so helpful and just bringing your awareness to that emotion and then and then recognizing that, yeah, that it can just move through you.

MJ: Absolutely. And I think, like, our inner world is always gonna be a mirror of our outer world. So if you don't know what emotion you most struggle with, look at the emotion that you project out onto the world. Mhmm. Right? Like, if you, are someone who's constantly sizing up everybody in a room, like, oh, they they have this or they have this or you're checking other people how many followers they have or whatever, You're struggling with pride. Right? There's pride there. You think that there's, like, a a quantification to our value, and that's just an emotion. And, where you look out in the world and you think, you know, there's so much injustice. There is. But there's so much going on and, you know, with you wanna fight the fight. You it's anger. And, like, there's nothing wrong with any of them, but it's just making sure that when you are confronting these emotions, you are letting them flow through you and doing the healthy things necessary in order to move the emotion, not letting it become your personality. Mhmm. Right? I I tell the story, and my grandfather, if you're hearing this, I love you, but you were a little wacky. He's dead. But he you know, my grandmother cheated on him with the neighbor, and his personality switched. He used to be, like, fun loving guy, and then he became, I hate women resentful guy. And that's who he was until he died from that one instance. So, like, we can we can have something happen to us, and it can an emotion gets imprinted on us, then it becomes our story. It becomes the thing that we're struggling with for years, and then it becomes our purse our whole personality. Mhmm. And that's insane.

Tonya: It is. Yeah. It is like what do you think is happening when people are bypassing emotions? Is it a lot of unconscious processes? Is it yeah. I mean, like, is it a lack of access to information or just how people are raised, support?

MJ: Yeah. I'm not sure. I mean, there's probably it's probably all of it. Mhmm. You know? Like, there's there's we I think humans do just run on programs. Mhmm. So of the mind. So, like, if you program generations of men that they cannot ever be in touch with their feelings or talk to anyone else about their feelings, that that's inappropriate to the point where they will be, you know, mocked, and you cause them pain if they do it. It will take an immense amount of them going through, you know, a healing journey or reprogramming journey in order to feel safe in doing that. And it's the same with anybody with any emotion. Right? I think one of the worst things that we can have is people be forced to feel emotions alone. I think one of you know, just having somebody where you can say the thing too. This is how I'm feeling, and they can witness you. There's something that dissipates in that moment. Right?

Tonya: Mhmm. So true. I love that you said that because, wow, it's so true to to also to say it to a stranger, to an external party, just to be witness, just to get this thing off of your chest and mind is liberation.

MJ: Mhmm. Yeah. And someone safe. Someone who understands that it's just an emotion.

Tonya: Exactly.

MJ: You know, like someone who's not immediately gonna try to be like, oh, have you tried meditating? Like Or somebody

Tonya: who believes you. I don't know if you've ever had that experience where, like, you have this right? You like, I've had it for Simon where I'm just like, I actually just need to vocalize this, and I really just don't need you to believe me. Mhmm. Do you know? Because, like, sometimes you say the thing, and then it's like they freak out, and you're like, oh, well, I don't need you to freak out. I we didn't we don't need to believe this. We I just need to, like, say it.

MJ: Oh, yeah. Yeah. They just need to hold space for that irrational thought. This this is my favorite thing about my best friend is that I can come to her saying the most irrational things, and she doesn't hop on the bandwagon with me. She's just like, okay. Totally valid. Also, let's, you know, let's process this. Let's walk through this. It's like, you know, if you're in a fight with your partner and you wanna talk to someone about it, you're gonna have the people who are, like, all of a sudden, oh, what did you do to him? Right? They wanna become, like, the the lawyer in it or the person who all of a sudden wants to fight your husband for you. You don't want either of those people. You don't wanna talk to either of them because it's just gonna make the conflict worse. You wanna talk to the person who's just gonna understand that you are having emotions, and that's okay. I'm like, okay.

Tonya: How do how does it look in your household if you don't mind sharing that? Like, you have two little ones. There's big emotions.

MJ: Oh, yeah.

Tonya: And and for parents too. Like, how does that all coalesce?

MJ: I think, you know, we are parenting at such a beautiful time where we have so much amazing research that shows us how wonderful it is to just hold space for kids. And, that's what we try to do in our parenting all the time. I mean, we're we are humans. So, obviously, there's, like, always gonna be the barriers of too muchness for our own nervous systems, and you just try your best in that moment not to be an asshole. Just to be like, okay. I'm, like, at my edge, and, I'm gonna put on some music. You know? And, you know, forget the kids. Yeah. That's just what it looks like. There's, like, everybody's having emotions all the times about everything that you could possibly imagine. And for us, what it's looked like for me I can't speak for Ian, my husband. He's definitely part of the male group who has had to learn to be vulnerable, learn to connect with other men on that level, and that's been healing for him. The background of my husband's story is that he used to be, you know, a drug addict. He used to be homeless, and he was homeless for over a year. And he's kinda peeled his life, picked his life back up, and put it back together. And a lot of it has been with, like, a certain amount of brotherhood, being really, vulnerable with other men and them helping each other. And for me, what it's looked like is I've had to be very intentional about processing my own emotions because I'm holding space for littles. And I don't think there's anything wrong about, showing your kids how you're feeling on the day to day, but someone's gotta drive the ship, And it's me. So I go downstairs, and I have started booking myself, like, crying appointments. And I will watch, things that would, like, evoke tear like, I have a whole Instagram saved folder of reels that I know will make me cry. And I'll watch them and just, like, I'll I'll just freaking feel it. Like, I'll just cry. Like, all the, like, motherhood, like, your children, they're not getting any younger. And you're just like, oh. But I just do it. And it honestly, the studies show if you just go in and you're just like, I'm feeling a little bit bitchy or I'm feeling a little bit whatever, if you just go and let yourself cry, you are gonna release so much stress. Mhmm. Like, nobody ever cries and thinks like, well, now I feel worse. You think, like, that feels good. It's like having a big poop. Mhmm. Just feels good.

Tonya: Yeah. How much do you cry? Like Not a lot. Weekly? I

MJ: mean, it depends on my cycle. But I would say less so, it's change it's just ever changing. I would say when I was a child, I was highly, highly sensitive. Lots of crying or lots and lots of crying. Like, nobody could stand me. And then, I stopped. I lost my older brother in a car accident. My dad relapsed and then committed suicide, and I, like, completely stopped crying. I just didn't I shut down. Like, I was I don't even I wasn't even on this planet. And then I did LSD, and it opened it, like, took a sledgehammer to my heart and opened up a magical portal to healing and well-being, which was just I just cried. I remember my boyfriend at the time was like, shit. Are you okay? Because I was just in the bathroom crying. And I was like, yeah. This is the best I've ever felt in my life. Like, just you can just go downstairs. I'm just gonna be up here crying. Like, this feels so good. I'm, like, feeling and I wrote this in the book. Like, it was just, like, so I thought that if I cried about my brother and my dad and losing them, that somehow it would mean that they were more lost. But what I actually found was, like, that quote where, you know, grief really is love in a heavy coat. Like, when you go deeper into your grief, it is untapped love. Like, you find untapped abundance of love. And, that's where I was wrong. I was wrong in that. Like, I thought if I avoided it, it would somehow mean that I was, you know, paying service to them. I wasn't you know? But it it was just feeling it.

Tonya: Wow.

MJ: And yeah. And then I've just been on a journey to teach myself how to cry after that and be okay with it. I've still never cried. I've you know, I cried, with you on your last podcast. You're probably the only woman I've cried or and anybody listening, but I've never I've never cried in front of, like, a girlfriend yet. I know. I've been on a journey. I've been on the journey of, like, trusting, being emotional. I'm always been the person to be, like, kinda hold it in, hold the space. My husband's the only man I've ever cried in front of.

Tonya: Wow.

MJ: Yeah. Wow. I've been on a journey. How to cry. That's the title of the book. I'm I'm a

Tonya: little nervous. Wow. That's so that's really remarkable. Thank you for sharing that. I had so many shivers. Like, yeah. That's really

MJ: How much do you cry?

Tonya: It is not anything too usual. I feel like it's sometimes spontaneous. Trying to think of my and and it kinda depends also on what's going on in my life. But I'd say maybe, like, a really good cry. It depends. I I also have I need to send you this YouTube I have that gets me. Yeah. I can cry so easily. It's like, it could be at the drop of a hat if I see something on social media that could get me. And, I've actually I've been listening to the telepathy tapes that's made me cry.

MJ: Oh, so good.

Tonya: So good. I have healing moments that will make me cry, and then and then not doing psychedelics too regularly. But when I do have that, there's definitely a big moment of release, or it's like hysterical laughter that turns into the most beautiful release of sobbing tears. I actually had this one story I wanted to share with you about when I was in a breakup, and I was in school. And it was a really difficult time. I think it was, like, 02/2016, and I had a presentation to give to my class. And, for some reason, I decided to choose, like, a Pablo Neruda, love poem. In front of 30 people, I just got up and stood in front of them and, like, tried to read this poem, but was just, like like, sobbing, like, hysterical tears in front of people. And I was like, why did I choose to do that? But it was it felt like it it was, for whatever reason, what I needed at that moment, but I'd say that was the most, like, public, like, some level of embarrassment, but it was so far gone being able to stop the tears.

MJ: Yeah. I feel like nothing makes me trust someone more than people who cry. I don't know what it is. Like, when I'm just witnessing people out in the world doing their, like, whatever it is, their podcast, their media rounds, TV, like, when someone starts crying, I'm like, oh, they're real. This is a real human. Mhmm. It's like every you know, media is so funny the way we we perceive people now. A lot of think about how many people you talk to in a day versus how many people you listen to.

Tonya: Mhmm.

MJ: It's wild how many people we listen to and how much of it is scripted. Mhmm. And then you see someone just being real. It's like, oh my god. Thank god. Mhmm. You're a human. Mhmm.

Tonya: Yeah.

MJ: Yeah. I would've I wish I could've been there for you, Pablo, and then we're crying. It would've felt so good for me. Like, it's such a relief when I see people make mistakes or cry. I'm like, oh my god. We're here. We're human again.

Tonya: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting to be with, like, when you're in that space and you're receiving so many different things from people, if you're being witnessed crying, like, the safety of that to be like, oh, I feel you feel really sorry for me versus, like, the quality of somebody who's just kind of, like, able to hold it and hold you in that in such a container where it's, like, so nonjudgmental and loving. Yeah.

MJ: Yeah. It's, the people who will, like, kinda rub you on the back and say let it out, they deserve medals. Mhmm. Like, that's so everybody's go to is like, oh, don't cry. Mhmm. Don't cry. And you're just like, why not? Mhmm. Well, it's because they're uncomfortable with it.

Tonya: Totally. What do you so to somebody who hasn't cried in a while, like, how would they get in touch with it?

MJ: Okay. So it's, like, five milligrams of I'm just kidding. Just kidding. You don't have to do acid or That was my personal journey. I actually took two tabs. Wow.

Tonya: That's wild.

Tonya: So that tells you a lot about my personality. I, you know, if you wanna cry, I think don't start with trying to do it around other people. Start by doing it with yourself. And, also, I challenge you to look at yourself in the mirror. Just gonna throw that one out there. But if you if you wanna cry, I would say do what you need to do to get closer to that that which is going to evoke the emotion. So, you know, the things that make me cry there's a basketball player. I don't remember his name, but he's got an interview where he's telling a story of losing his older brother to cancer and going into the hospital room. And, you know, it's a very motivating story because he becomes an amazing basketball player, but he's talking about losing his brother and how his other brother says, you know, I I don't think I got the family. Like, I can't I can't do this. They didn't have a dad. And he walks into the room, and he feels his brother's feet, and they're cold. And he gets into bed with his older brother who's now passed, and, he just says, like, I got you. And then goes on to become an NBA basketball player and pay for his mom's bills and, you know, he's got the family. He has this feeling. And, like, that that resonates so deeply with, like, such core wounds for me because I picture you know, I had a dream one time where I was running through a field towards this, like, beautiful sunrise with my whole family. And it was my mom, me, my brother, and my dad who were running and, like, the family dog. And then all of a sudden, like, the family dog kinda had to slow down. And and then my brother slowed down, and then my dad slowed down. And it was just my mom and I running. And I was like, holy shit. Like, it's it's I'm I'm I'm watching in real time something that will happen to everybody, but I'm watching everyone around me die. And I I, you you know, just go deep in that pain. Go to whatever is painful for you. Like, whatever pain you have, just, you know, envision a sword, envision a wolf to protect you, envision someone in your life to be your protector and go into it. Because when you go into that darkness and you allow yourself to face it instead of suppress it, you're gonna find so much more freedom in your life, in your day to day that you ever would have thought was imaginable. Because we do so many things subconsciously to avoid that pain. And you'll find yourself maybe even becoming an entirely different person, which is so, yeah, so wild. Our body is so intelligent. Yeah.

Tonya: Thank you for that. The it's so easy when it's so easy because life is can get so busy. It can feel so busy. I think it can be a lot easier in ways to run away from all of that instead of really feel it. And it's like it's so true that in the depths of those places is always the portal to, like, the freedom and just the the the on the other side of that is something so far beyond our imagination of experience and joy and release and liberation of sorts that, like

MJ: Absolutely.

Tonya: It's like a this, yeah, this black hole that we have to find the courage to move through and to, like, understand, and it's so it's such a hard expansive experience too.

MJ: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I know someone in my life who, you know, lost someone, and I was speaking to them one time about their work. They love working, always working, always on their phone. And I was like, when are you gonna retire? And they were like, oh, well, I don't wanna retire because then I would have to think about that person that I lost. And I'm sitting there having this conversation with the person, and they're kind of flitting between the conversation in their phone and the conversation in their phone. And I don't know if they fully comprehended how much of life they were missing out on by just avoiding grief, avoiding grieving that person because I wanted to be like, open your eyes. Like, you have there's people here right now who love you and wanna look at you, look at you in the eye, and, like, piss you on the mouth, and, like, love you, and, like, share a meal with you. And, yeah, it's just it it's it is something that can eat away eat away at your life. And before you know it, you're 70. Mhmm. And it's just like if, you know, you so you get to heaven and God's there if that's what you believe in. And you could be like, oh my god. Like, I missed out on so much of my life. And they would be like, yeah. Because you're you didn't wanna cry. Like, it would sound so so wild.

Tonya: Yeah. Didn't cry quite enough. It's it's it's funny you said that too because I have some some people in my life who are retired, and it's so interesting because after after retirement, it seems like in our culture, for maybe that generation as well who are, like, in their seventies now, there's just people who I am very close with who start to process their family wounds in their seventies after retirement, and it's like there just wasn't whatever. Like, the decision to create space, the speed at which life was moving, the ways the places where we where we put our awareness are in so many other places other than into investing in our emotions. And I remember reading this book one time that talks about the the kind of, like, three life crisis moments that we go through, which are typically around, like, 20 well, somewhere between, like, '27, '30 '6, there's a big change there. And then another one kind of in the fifties, and then another one later in life, seventies and beyond where we have these moments that really define us and that can kind of unravel everything. And it depends on the person and their, like, whole chart and everything, but I I find that so interesting just like the planetary evolutionary shifts that might happen in somebody's life too to make space to for them to feel various things.

MJ: Yeah. I love that. Is that Saturn? What? It's

Tonya: I must be Saturn. The book is called astrology of the Kundalini rising.

MJ: Oh. Yeah. I'll read it.

Tonya: I'm, like, halfway through. I haven't finished it all. But it's, yeah, it's it's it's a really cool book. It's, like, all about having a really solid foundation of work, like work, like awareness, you know, like the ability to be with ourselves in in truth so that when we move through these moments and challenges in our life, we have the the tools and the resources to, like, know how to get through them.

MJ: Yes. Yes. I mean, to answer your question, you asked me one or two questions ago, like breath work.

Tonya: Mhmm.

MJ: I I can't praise it enough. Like and I'm not just saying this because this is what I do. I mean, I would anyways. But it is it is the portal to your autonomic nervous system.

Tonya: Truly.

MJ: You can choose to be sympathetic or parasympathetic depending on how you choose to breathe. And there and I, you know, I I love mindset work. I'm a big mindset person, very, very, very conscious about how I choose to say things as to the best of my ability. But when someone's having a panic attack, you don't say don't think those thoughts. Mhmm. Mhmm. You say, breathe deeply and take a deep breath. You know? It is it is, the somatic entrance portal to, like, being in the driver's seat of your body again. Like, I think anybody right now on Earth can understand that there I don't wanna be like one of those people that's like, there's a war. You know? However, there is there is something happening to our our attention, and it's very good at it. Like, it's very good at taking you out of your life, taking you out of the present moment. And what is taking you out of is things like friendships and family and noticing sunlight dancing on the river. And I think I love breath work because it's been I'm a human. It's something I have to work against. Right? An algorithm, screens, all these things. And, it's something that's helped me so much just come back into that seat of awareness of like, oh, yeah. I'm MJ. I'm on this planet. Here's what I like. Here's what I value. Here's what I wanna do while I'm here. And I don't want and I don't want a minute to go by, without being in reverence.

Tonya: Yeah. Yeah. I just I I just released a podcast yesterday about sensitivity and it really being the that too muchness that you talked about. Like, I was told that for some oh, in a lot of ways, in a lot of playful ways too. Not like always, like, you know

MJ: Yeah. Yeah.

Tonya: But but it was, like, something I heard a lot, but I, you know, it's it's such a journey. It's such a journey having a sensitivity or or being empathic or seeing, like, you know, just whatever. Being able to feel others' feelings and, having to learn to move through the world in in various ways that both let you feel the expression of it and know when to have some form of, like, barriers or boundaries. But I, yeah, have just in my whole life experience, and I know I'm I think you can relate is, like, the, that it's it's just such a gift to be able to feel so so deeply and not be afraid of that and to bring that forward and show that courageousness and truth to others is part of how we do shift the narrative and how you can, like, you know, continue to, like, create children, raise children with these with these kinds of emotional intelligence or this kind of awareness.

MJ: Yeah. Like, it's it's okay to cry, and it's okay to feel things, and there's nothing wrong. It's it's yeah. I definitely had a lot of the same programming, and I would bet a lot of money that people listening to this would too. And, yeah, that's so well put. It is it is this balance between, you know, how do I let myself feel it all Mhmm. But also be a human and, like, do the things that are I are are expected of me in a in a life designed by people who don't feel as much as I do.

Tonya: Mhmm.

MJ: Mhmm. Totally. It is it's a wild ride. And I think, like, that I don't I don't have the perfect advice, but I know that the advice I would give is don't do what I did before. Don't shut down. Mhmm. Don't shut down. I think it's okay to shut the doors a little bit. Like, I'm I'm pretty mindful with who I spend my time with if I have to spend long periods of time with people, because it can be really disregulating.

Tonya: Mhmm. Totally.

MJ: It is. And it that's okay. I don't know. I'm I'm, like, so spiritual. I love everybody, but I don't want you at my house for a long time. I don't vibe with you, and that's okay. %. Yes. And then there's other people you can just, like, literally cry with. And Yeah. That's those are your people. And I think that's okay. But I think, yeah, the one of the pieces for me has just been, like, go in. Like, I'm a like, reclaim it. I'm a sense of bit. I'm a little bit.

Tonya: Me too. Me too. Wait. So did we cry on the last episode together?

MJ: Yeah.

Tonya: Did you we did.

MJ: We did. We I think you cried too. I think we were talking about, I I mentioned, my birth and how it was just, holy shit. Like, it was wild.

Tonya: Yeah.

MJ: Yeah. It was wild. And I think we both maybe we didn't. I have a terrible memory.

Tonya: I remember I remember we no. We very, very likely did, and I remember reading the birth story when you released it. And I'm quite sure I cried then too. I, yeah, I'm getting more and more excited for the birth portal.

MJ: It is the coolest thing I've ever done in my life.

Tonya: Yeah. It seems like that.

MJ: I just I get the women who just wanna birth, like, 10 babies. I'm like, do I want 10 babies? Very, very. It's very it's it's it's for a certain person. I will say that. But it's it's very, wow. Like, closest to god I've ever been.

Tonya: Yeah. Yeah. I could I I can imagine. Were there big differences in the two for you?

MJ: I mean, logistically, yes. Like, one was a hospital birth with an epidural, and there was that. And then one was a home birth in her bedroom. Like, they're different vibes, I guess. Mhmm. But they were the same in that I it was just the lessons. Mhmm. You're gonna learn the lesson that you need to learn. Mhmm. I don't think I've met many people who have said to me, like, oh, my birth went exactly exactly according to plan. Mhmm. Maybe some women who have given birth a lot, but but I just had to take a take away my lessons. And, you know, I mentioned on the last podcast with my daughter, it was I ended up, you know, puking for hours and hours and hours and had to go be put on IV and then ended up taking an epidural, which was, you know, has fentanyl in it. And that's the drug that my dad used to do, like, almost my whole life, not my whole life because fentanyl wasn't around, but opiates. And I just remember looking at my husband and just being like, oh my god.

Tonya: I get it. I get why he

MJ: did this. I get why you did this. And my husband's like, but it just it it gave me this healing that I never would have had had I not had things go. And I'm putting in this in quotation marks, wrong. Right? Like, it went right to show me Mhmm. What I needed to learn in that moment to be a good parent. Mhmm. Because I had the story that I was unworthy because my dad chose drugs over me. And then all of a sudden I'm experiencing, oh, this drug completely eradicates your emotional physical pain. Of course, my dad who had sexual abuse would take this. Like, so yeah. And my second one was just, I'll just I'm not gonna go into it, but I'll just say there was a thunderstorm during, and the power went out, and it was like, wow. Bowie was coming into the world. Wow. It was really cool.

Tonya: Is it did you have any other did you have any girl girlfriends with you or Ian like, Ian?

MJ: I had Ian. I had my doula with me who is someone I've known for a long time and, just a really magical woman who has three kids and home birth and just, like, knew the way. The midwives were there, and I had a a close friend with Sunday because my daughter was there. And, like, she was in the birth pool with me sometimes, and it was just, yeah, it was like

Tonya: Wow.

MJ: It was really cosmic. Like, I just yeah. It was it was wild. The the interesting thing I'll say from that experience that I learned was that, like, the But it really does. It ties so well back to it. Just that the more I resisted what was happening, resisted the pain. Like, I tried to do the things that you're supposed to do, like, hold the combs in your hand or, do these things when your contraction comes, and then you won't feel the pain more. The more I kind of, like, tried to run away from it, the more painful it got. But the more I just, like, released my hands into surrender, I sang the whole time singing. The more I went deeper into the pain and just accepted and surrendered it, it would become almost painless. And that was the trippiest experience because you're experiencing real time how you're supposed to be living your entire life. Like, oh, you're telling me if I just let go and let god, things will be okay? I'll have a lot less suffering. Mhmm. And you just, like, every two minutes, you get to experience that of, like, oh my god. I've been, like, gripping and controlling and trying to avoid all these things my whole life that I'm supposed to be facing, and it just brings about more friction, more pain, more tension, more suffering. And then if I go the other way and I just let it, just let it, it is okay. And it was Yeah. Yeah. It was just it's so cool.

Tonya: Can't wait to talk to you more before doing that and before going through that myself because I think we've talked about this before. It's just so helpful to hear the empowering stories that I just I just wrote a research article on, hypnobirthing, and the research is so, like, just unequivocal. Women need every single scenario where a woman is empowered. Like, because that's all it is. It's just like we're gonna give you a few tools to relax, to instill a sense of confidence that you have every single resource to get through this. And, like, the rates well, satisfaction rates are 75% higher. There's, the the the length of labor is is 50% shorter. Just because, like, women feel like they can handle it and they're and they can, like, relax and breathe, and, it can be framed as a spiritual experience and, like, all of these things. And so I love I love hearing that, and I sometimes I was making this pain I was, like, in pain the other day, and I was like, oh, the sound of pain is also really very much like the sound of pleasure. And how can you play with that kind of those two ends where you go into them both?

MJ: Yeah. If you wanna open your vagina, go into pleasure.

Tonya: Yeah. Yeah. You did that. I remember that story. I loved it.

MJ: But it's yes. I think you're 100%. It's one of the things in life. You know, the magic I'm gonna I'm, like, looking at the time, and I'm trying not to go on a huge rant. But, like, we have completely been, like, deprogrammed of the magic of women. Women are amazing. We are so amazing. And I'm like, I just gave myself goosebumps.

Tonya: The best kind.

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